Looking to take cavern & intro. Feedback welcomed.

[scubastingray]

Thanks for all the information everyone!

Ken, as I get organized I'll send you a list of questions. I'm also trying to talk my brother into doing this training with me. He doesn't have advanced and a few less dives, but is at fish level of comfort underwater. We've been diving at least one spot a week (usually four dives over two tanks) and will do so through the training so we should be in good enough shape.

I saw that Ginnie only does through Intro, which is okay. I don't plan on doing too much more past that, although we'll see if I get the bug. From there long term goals are great lake wreck diving. This will be my first venture into overhead and tech diving, although it likely won't be my last.

Multiple instructors does seem good. If I find someone I really like I can always stick with them, but learning different rules from everyone is awesome. That's part of the reason I've been reading as much as I can from this and CDF.

I'll look into ordering a blueprint for survival now. It seems that's common to every course, and it seems like it will have some good information. This is also the first set of tech training I will be doing. I know practicing in between would be ideal, but it's hard to get multiple days off so it'd be easier to just do it all at once. The trips I've been doing and plan on for this summer have been day trips. I know some places even offer longer courses to get you through apprentice and full cave for those on vacation where traveling is prohibitive. I don't want to do that, but combining cavern and intro isn't so bad, is it? If this is poor form please let me know. Obviously there is a conflict of interest because I'm paying for the training, so the "give the customer what he wants" could be present without me realizing.


Thanks,

Austin

 

[lv2dive]

Austin, if you work with an individual instructor like Ken, Jim, Dan, or Rich, you won't be going "through" Ginnie.. It will just (likely) be one of the systems you will dive. Their instructors on staff may only teach through intro but there is no need to work through them vs. directly with your instructor of preference. IMHO.

---------- Post added June 19th, 2014 at 09:31 PM ----------

By having different instructors you will be exposed to different styles and some different *flavors* perhaps... But I expect the hard and fast rules won't change much from one instructor to the next. One way a lot of us remember them is "thank god good divers live" aka "training gas guideline depth lights"

 

[kensuf]

Wrong order Kate. You need to take my cavern class. "Thank god all divers life [safely]" (training, guideline, air management, depth [end/po2/gas mgmt], lights" and I also talk about solo diving (it's a NAUI thing, but I still incorporate it because it forced me to take a break). BTW -- are you diving with us this weekend?

Austin, personally I do not recommend the "zero to hero" program of trying to do it all at once. While there are indeed some people that can be successful without time between the steps, they usually have tons of experience under their belt and they are the exception. There is a ton of cave to see within the limits of intro to cave divers, and building the experience slowly gives you an opportunity to truly be ready for that final step.

Cavern and intro is a logical step, then spend time developing the skills and techniques before moving on. Really, there's no rush, the caves aren't going anywhere (well aside from water quality issues).

I realize that for out of town people this presents a problem, but in my opinion it's safer for new cave divers, and causes less damage to the caves, if people build their experience gradually and slowly. Awareness, buoyancy control, and technique come with experience. It took me six months to go from cavern to full cave back between August 1994 and January 1995, and I live in Gainesville and was in the water cave diving 2-3 times a week (and working as an assistant-instructor at a large academic diving program). I do not regret spending that extra time developing my skills.

Ken

 

[lv2dive]

Oh yeah oops I DID know guideline came before gas... But since they are all "rules" wasn't thinking too hard on order ;-). Which day Ken?

 

[kwinter]

Austin, personally I do not recommend the "zero to hero" program of trying to do it all at once. While there are indeed some people that can be successful without time between the steps, they usually have tons of experience under their belt and they are the exception. There is a ton of cave to see within the limits of intro to cave divers, and building the experience slowly gives you an opportunity to truly be ready for that final step.

Cavern and intro is a logical step, then spend time developing the skills and techniques before moving on. Really, there's no rush, the caves aren't going anywhere (well aside from water quality issues).

I could not agree more. I don't know Ken at all, but this speaks volumes to me about his instructional philosophy. Kudos.


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.

 

[karstdvr]

I realize that for out of town people this presents a problem

I know what Ken is saying here, but you have to question what kind of cave diver will a zero to hero cave diver become in this scenario. If someone takes a course to complete all levels of training because they live out of town, then when they eventually get back, what kind of cave diver will they be? How much skill atrophy will occur, and will they be safe? We have seen numerous accidents occur from out of town people that will spend a week cave diving,and on their last dive they will have made it to a certain penetration, 6 months later when they return, they think they are ready to resume where they left off at. I have seen veteran cave divers who have been out of the water for several months because of a medical issue, make their first dive very short, and work their way back slowly. Reality and common sense have to take precedent when cave diving. If you can't dive frequently, then longer penetrations may never be in the cards for you, and possibly the sport of cave diving. I used to like to snow ski, but as infrequently as I would go, the reality of it was I would never ever get to do black diamond slopes and made my self content with bunny trails.

 

[scubastingray]

I know what Ken is saying here, but you have to question what kind of cave diver will a zero to hero cave diver become in this scenario. If someone takes a course to complete all levels of training because they live out of town, then when they eventually get back, what kind of cave diver will they be? How much skill atrophy will occur, and will they be safe? We have seen numerous accidents occur from out of town people that will spend a week cave diving,and on their last dive they will have made it to a certain penetration, 6 months later when they return, they think they are ready to resume where they left off at. I have seen veteran cave divers who have been out of the water for several months because of a medical issue, make their first dive very short, and work their way back slowly. Reality and common sense have to take precedent when cave diving. If you can't dive frequently, then longer penetrations may never be in the cards for you, and possibly the sport of cave diving. I used to like to snow ski, but as infrequently as I would go, the reality of it was I would never ever get to do black diamond slopes and made my self content with bunny trails.

Very good point.

To be clear I'm not looking to spend a week making it to full cave, just combining cavern and intro.

 

[karstdvr]

Very good point.

To be clear I'm not looking to spend a week making it to full cave, just combining cavern and intro.

I understand,and that is a good choice of intro/cavern. I was replying to Ken's comment about taking the full course. Wish you best of luck on your course

 

[kensuf]

Kelly, I hear what you're saying.

But let's also look at the other side of the problem with your "one week every year (or less frequent) cave diver." As you know, cave awareness comes from time in the water. What's more of a problem in your opinion, the infrequent flier that is limited to simple gold line diving, or the infrequent flier that is "allowed" to do jumps, t's, circuits and traverses?

Actually, I just re-read your post to make sure I had the quote right, and it sounds to me like you're agreeing that Zero to Hero is a bad idea. So I'll just shut up now.

Ken

 

[HIGHwing]

I don't know that I want to get into full cave, but...

These words have been said many times before...