Lost Buddy Marker

[Cave Diver]

Now what if you dont find clear water?

It's going to depend on the system. If you can't find clear water in somewhere like Ginnie, then you almost have to be off the mainline.

If you're on the mainline and you can't find clear water in high flow system, I'd have to assume there is a major event taking place behind me.

This means that my hand is glued to the line and if I can't find clear water after a reasonable time (passing one or two markers) Then I'd have to think about dropping the light at the next one.

In a low flow/no flow system I'd probably follow a similar procedure but I would pay MUCH more attention to the feel of arrows and the line to make sure that I hadnt gotten turned around and heading back into the cave, or inadvertently gotten off on a side tunnel or following some sort of circuit ala' Little River.

 

[rjack321]

Ok, I will allow one bounce back and forth but even if stressed I try to avoid diving with dummer buddies than that!!! If two consequent arrows don't match, confirm with third and then you are on your own, make your pick.

Many caves don't have enough arrows frequent enough to pass one that you "think" might be a personal arrow pointing the wrong way. Places in MX you might only see 3 in a 1200ft penetration (400ft apart).

Your buddy has been off the line for an indeterminant amount of time, he/she has (very likely) already gone through alot of gas refinding the line. By definition they've been lost and probably aren't aware of where they are even when they do get back to the exit line. They are having a "come to Jesus" dive here and will probably quit cave diving if they survive.

You've exited the cave leaving confusing information behind when you knew where you were and the exit direction already. What is the greatest need, your exit or a coherent exit for your buddy left behind?

 

[piikki]

Many caves don't have enough arrows frequent enough to pass one that you "think" might be a personal arrow pointing the wrong way. Places in MX you might only see 3 in a 1200ft penetration (400ft apart).

You've exited the cave leaving confusing information behind when you knew where you were and the exit direction already. What is the greatest need, your exit or a coherent exit for your buddy left behind?

In my limited experience I have only been diving in systems that have frequent permanent arrows. That’s why it’s good to read about these things – more to ask!

My immediate thought would be that in a less-marked cave, I would be even more prone to drop more CLEAR, un-questionable (as in arrows) markers on the line. Not for myself or other (hypothetical or not) teams that might arrive on the scene but for my buddy – especially if I am in the terrifying situation that I have to abandon the search but maybe maybe also during the search? Again, not much point if your buddy does not know your markers and trust them.

If the search area is large and permanent markers are far apart might it not make sense to drop more than one marker/thing on the line as the search goes on and time becomes an essence? If there are no other cues (silt out, no permanent markers) your personalized markers might be the only thing your buddy could hit and make the last ditch effort to get going the correct way?? We are now not talking about dropping “I’ve exited” msg to your buddy. We are seriously talking about leaving something that might give them an extra couple of minutes to get out.

 

[Cave Diver]

In my limited experience I have only been diving in systems that have frequent permanent arrows. That’s why it’s good to read about these things – more to ask!

My immediate thought would be that in a less-marked cave, I would be even more prone to drop more CLEAR, un-questionable (as in arrows) markers on the line. Not for myself or other (hypothetical or not) teams that might arrive on the scene but for my buddy – especially if I am in the terrifying situation that I have to abandon the search but maybe maybe also during the search? Again, not much point if your buddy does not know your markers and trust them.

As a new/inexperienced cave diver, one of the things that you want to strive for is situational awareness. New divers are so task loaded that they can experience a perceptual narrowing. There comes a point for most of us that verifying what we already know becomes routine.

Most regular dive buddy teams learn their own pace. They know how much air they should have before they even look at the gauge. They know when to expect the next marker to come up based on how long it's been since they've seen the last one.

If I'm in a cave and it's been too long since I've seen the last marker, I get this little tingling at the back of my neck. I'll usually start paying closer attention to the line, just in case I'd glanced away and missed the last marker and if I don't see one in pretty short order, I'll place one of my arrows on the line to reinforce the exit.

If we come to a transition, like the double arrows at Olsen/P1 I'll place a cookie on the exit side of the arrows where I came in. Same thing whenever we hit the merry go round in Little River or the junction at JB. That reinforces to my team, which side of the arrow we came in on and eliminates any chance of confusion.

For a dive that I've done a hundred times, it's probably overkill. But I was taught to reinforce my exit whenever there is a direction change and the majority of the time that I'm in these systems I'm the only one I see doing it. On the other hand, I've never been confused exiting a cave yet and if I was coming out in a high stress situation, I'd feel damn relieved to see my marker, reinforcing my exit and knowing I'm on the right track.

As one of my previous instructors was fond of saying "You can't argue safety."

 

[redrover]

The threads centered around the recent accident at Ginnie has led to some interesting discussion, both here and other boards.

The one discussion that has really piqued my interest though, revolves around leaving a lost buddy marker.

What other methods do you use to indicate to a lost buddy that you are searching for them, or that you have already left the cave?

I’m not a cave diver but did do a lot of SAR as well as personal road less traveled adventures including meets. This is merely looking out of the box perspective and am in no way implying you ought to do this.

An unlabeled marker and assumptions from (indicate) has limited usefulness, where specifying has broader applications. Indicating opposing conclusions gives me the shudders.
If these have been considered and deemed inappropriate I can live with just that if you say so. Although I am surprised and curious why you do not.

If I left any marker I’d do some explaining and in far greater detail I read you would. Deciding how to interpret clues is a blast in training, not so much in life or death.

I suspect individual site and situation would drive the level of both known and unknowns I would consider relevant with considerable abbreviation in the interest of time.
PLS <1min @ SltO ‘marked’ w/C+B/UL at U/D L >JD(oe) Sue J.(Abbreviation examples I’d expect a reasonably competent cave diver to grasp.) ‘Marked’ being only my cookie or R(eel) and/or BackUp Light, what ever we agreed in dive planning– and expanded when unsuccessful.

Lost Diver(s):
Name, military time, gas, direction, Point Last Seen, situation at occurrence, any deviations from basic (scooter, stages, side mount, equip - problems resolved and not) competence, team plan, contingency plans, additional markers identifiable by X.

Owner of marker(s):
Name, military time, date, gas at left: >search plan (ie recover stage>return, return >PLS.

Marker Owner at return from search OR lost diver arriving:
Name, time, gas, plan i.e. >exit, additional markers planning to leave on exit, surface plan (ie more gas at surface >return etc.)

It would take some convincing for me to consider altering any permanent travel indicators an/or markings. I would worry anyone, including diver marker(s) left for coming across one may make worst case possible assumption/obligation - one or more missing divers - situation unknown -confuse them in thier situation. Where detail clarifies situation and I expect is reassuring/calming ie all I need to do is make my way out and expect more gas coming back by x my PSI. Or say blind team enough info they are not risking them selves when no hope.
If successful reunite and unable to recover markings leave note referring to what lies ahead from that point. Surface plan include a note to situation such as, ‘Markers’ unnecessary John Doe and Sue Jones returned safe >time, date. Please gather markers left and return >Contact.
As far as time spent goes, my thought is if possibility another team running across situation blind, I’d feel better with at least some sort of JD SJ OK or how/if they can help.
Can one pencil mark a cookie or Arrow left on a line? Seems a clot of even jumbled line markers jammed together (w/notes) indicates Unusual - Stop and take notice of.

 

[ucfdiver]

While you're writing your log book underwater, I think most of us would be exiting the cave and calling for help, or spending that time searching for the lost buddy. You've got to remember that even in a place like Ginnie, with scooter divers nearby, you absolutely have to get help asap if there's any rescue chance at all. If you intersect another team on the way out, write them a note, but don't waste precious time leaving a note that there's a good chance no one will find.

Just my opinion, I guess everyone has their own about how to handle these situations.

 

[piikki]

While you're writing your log book underwater, I think most of us would be exiting the cave and calling for help, or spending that time searching for the lost buddy. You've got to remember that even in a place like Ginnie, with scooter divers nearby, you absolutely have to get help asap if there's any rescue chance at all. If you intersect another team on the way out, write them a note, but don't waste precious time leaving a note that there's a good chance no one will find.

I agree. The best chance the lost diver in the cave has must be coming from the diver&#8217;s team &#8211; including of course the lost diver him/herself. However clever the note, it most likely will not be picked up by anyone else but the lost diver or a recovery team.

I am still debating the relative value of (multiple) messages, swapping them etc vs just having one fairly simple &#8216;end msg&#8217; when one decides to leave. At that point I can see a point (in some places) leaving a note for the OFF chance that a third party miraculously wandered on the spot and had the opportunity to help. (I still think writing notes to buddy might not be worth that much. Buddy might be OK just with a symbol that tells you are either in/out).

More you write, more chance for confusion too. Buddy lost at that spot, times, where you went, and maybe what amount of gas they had or some gear info (scooter/SM) that can be conveyed with one word? For example, you can list every place you looked and by that time your buddy might be exactly where you already looked. In real life most people do not have surface support awaiting, and even if you listed what is your plan to do next it does not much matter to the team arriving who are limited in what they can do and cannot trust you will be able to carry on with your plan either.

 

[redrover]

Oh, I did not mean to imply a book for every instance and the bulk of my thoughts were directed for other teams and clear understanding what was indicated. My experince w/lost person search had no opportunity to communicate before the fact.
I've pushed the envelope pretty far on rescue when a chance for success. The one 'nice' thing about recoveries was not having that stress. I did not have the impression from my reading there is only one team in a system at any given time. I figured there was a good reason why not, thank you for answering.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

The systems that many refer to on the boards are the more popular ones, but there are many many more less frequented systems as well, places where you may and most likely will be the only team in the system. So leaving a note for other teams may not be helpful, and would be rather foolish in some cases. Even diving in the more popular systems, you are in no way guaranteed to see another team on your dive.

I hope it need not be said, but I will say it anyways. This is a good example of why cave and technical diving cannot be learned solely online, though there is notthing wrong with a good discussion and any farther insight that might be gleamed from it.

 

[Cave Diver]

Oh, I did not mean to imply a book for every instance and the bulk of my thoughts were directed for other teams and clear understanding what was indicated. My experince w/lost person search had no opportunity to communicate before the fact.
I've pushed the envelope pretty far on rescue when a chance for success. The one 'nice' thing about recoveries was not having that stress. I did not have the impression from my reading there is only one team in a system at any given time. I figured there was a good reason why not, thank you for answering.

RR, I would assume that anyone diving in the cave system has had proper training. As such, they should be familiar with basic navigational things like main (gold) line, secondary lines, spools, reels, jumps, gaps, arrows and cookies.

Seeing any of those things in cave by themselves would be rather unremarkable, in fact rather expected. It's not even unusual to find a slate clipped to a line from a survey or mapping project. It's not unthinkable that a note might be ignored by a team for that very reason.

The premise behind leaving a light behind as a marker has several aspects. It provides a visible reference point for the lost diver and the searching diver, it's a clear indication to the "lost" diver that his buddy has found the line and it serves to alert other teams that *may* be in the system that something is amiss. Additionally, if a note was left along with the light saying "buddy lost, search in progress" or "buddy lost, proceeding to exit." it would call much more attention to it.

Any other information is probably just extraneous and given a finite gas supply, time is better spent searching than writing.