Lost Buddy Marker

[rjack321]

I was asked about placing a arrow to the EXIT and my opinion on that.

The EXIT is always the way you have proven to direct you the surface out of the cave system and that line arrows should always point to the exit

I will purposely leave my statement at that

You don't get off this easy lol.

You enter at P1. You are between P1 and Olsen but closer to Olsen and the arrows point away from <your> exit. You're buddy is lost (seems difficult but run with it). Which direction do you place an arrow and why? Do you place any additional markers indicating "your" exit and what form do those take?

 

[GDI]

This thread starts out discussing the Lost Buddy marking methods. It even goes into discussing the lost Line....

OK so let me ask this. If you are lost so is your buddy effectively, agreed?. If you are off the line and in the dark then again effectively you are a lost diver as your buddy is not around providing light to which you both exit on, thus you are both effectively in the dark as to where your buddy is.

Here is my question:

How would you conduct the lost line drill with consideration to locating a lost buddy
a. in the dark;
b. in a silt out; and
c. under minimal lighted conditions (ie. a failing last back up light)

Hey Jim want to go have a beer and watch how these get answered?

 

[limeyx]

This thread starts out discussing the Lost Buddy marking methods. It even goes into discussing the lost Line....

OK so let me ask this. If you are lost so is your buddy effectively, agreed?. If you are off the line and in the dark then again effectively you are a lost diver as your buddy is not around providing light to which you both exit on, thus you are both effectively in the dark as to where your buddy is.

Here is my question:

How would you conduct the lost line drill with consideration to locating a lost buddy
a. in the dark;
b. in a silt out; and
c. under minimal lighted conditions (ie. a failing last back up light)

Hey Jim want to go have a beer and watch how these get answered?

I think richard answered that already but maybe not all in one post.
The question is, would you put an arrow in that contradicts the cave navigational markings and if so, why is that so much better than a directional marker that agrees with the other markers and a cookie behind it.

You are answering a question with a non-answer and another question

 

[rjack321]

This thread starts out discussing the Lost Buddy marking methods. It even goes into discussing the lost Line....

OK so let me ask this. If you are lost so is your buddy effectively, agreed?. If you are off the line and in the dark then again effectively you are a lost diver as your buddy is not around providing light to which you both exit on, thus you are both effectively in the dark as to where your buddy is.

Here is my question:

How would you conduct the lost line drill with consideration to locating a lost buddy
a. in the dark;
b. in a silt out; and
c. under minimal lighted conditions (ie. a failing last back up light)

Hey Jim want to go have a beer and watch how these get answered?

No you are on the line. You have covered your light to no avail. Upon uncovering your light you notice a silt cloud off in the distance. You are going to use your safety spool go investigate. What markers do you leave on the line before you leave it? If arrows, which direction does it point? Assuming you don't find your buddy in the silt cloud, would you leave any markers behind as you exit and what would those look like? Would you leave anything else behind like a backup light?

These are fairly practical questions that I think every cave diver should be able to answer ahead of time. I have earlier in this thread and can repeat my answers if needed.

 

[GDI]

You don't get off this easy lol.

You enter at P1. You are between P1 and Olsen but closer to Olsen and the arrows point away from <your> exit. You're buddy is lost (seems difficult but run with it). Which direction do you place an arrow and why? Do you place any additional markers indicating "your" exit and what form do those take?

Which exit ? The way the team came in, or the way the last bunch of arrows have been pointing (which may be the opposite way) ?

Hey it was this question, good example BTW

So how would YOU answer it?

 

[piikki]

Second of all if you are looking for a lost buddy your buddy should be looking for a lost buddy, We call that having AWARENESS and TEAM ALERTNESS. And it is a fact that you are both lost at that point.

Not to sound like smart-alec but for us to discuss dropping something ON the line, we have been assuming that someone is (back) on the line. Even if we call it so that both (all) divers are lost from each other, I would say that I would consider myself way less lost when I am (back) on the line than when I am not. In real life these situations might very well start so that everyone is off the line and lost to max (hardly losing all LIGHTS though, maybe ability to see) but for this thread&#8217;s sake someone did make it back to line, and is now trying to make the best of it.

So how to better communicate to your buddy that you aren&#8217;t lost or are already exiting, so they can do so with lighter heart? Is there any point? As long as I know nothing, I have to consider buddy might be more lost than I am but I can try to tell I am quite Ok to find my way out alive, and prevent them pushing to find me, and maybe help them out of there too, in more ways than one. There seems to have been tragedies where people might have had a better chance if communication of the level of lostness of the least lost was more effective.

I am with the crowd who thinks it sure should not hurt and does not reduce my safety enough not to leave a light behind. At no point has this scenario been about 6-9+ lights being unfunctional - or anyone leaving their last functioning light behind which would be quite nuts&#8230;

The EXIT is always the way you have proven to direct you the surface out of the cave system and that line arrows should always point to the exit

I will purposely leave my statement at that

Why should the answer to this question be so cryptic or a secret?

I would like to hear it even if it is that you think other people are teaching new cave divers crap.

 

[Cave Diver]

This thread starts out discussing the Lost Buddy marking methods. It even goes into discussing the lost Line....

OK so let me ask this. If you are lost so is your buddy effectively, agreed?. If you are off the line and in the dark then again effectively you are a lost diver as your buddy is not around providing light to which you both exit on, thus you are both effectively in the dark as to where your buddy is.

Here is my question:

How would you conduct the lost line drill with consideration to locating a lost buddy
a. in the dark;
b. in a silt out; and
c. under minimal lighted conditions (ie. a failing last back up light)

Hey Jim want to go have a beer and watch how these get answered?

Wow. Things sure got sideways in a hurry. I've lost my buddy, I've lost the line and my last backup light is failing. Well at least my drysuit isn't flooded!

Ok, running with your example, my first priority is securing my position. That means taking out my safety reel, securing it and doing a lost line search. Once I find the line, I'm going to place a marker in the direction I believe my exit to be, based on my relation to the line in the cave during my last known position (i.e., was it on my left or my right prior to the siltout and loss of line?).

Next, I am going to secure my safety line to my marker, verify by touch and then I'm going to cut it on the spool side of the marker.

Then I will put my safety away and proceed "out" in touch contact with the line. During this time, I will be scanning for signs of my buddies light and feeling for markers to verify my direction of travel. If I find a contradictory marker, I'll reverse direction, backtrack til I reach my original marker and lost line, reverse the marker and continue in the new direction, scanning for signs of buddy.

Critique?

 

[piikki]

Next, I am going to secure my safety line to my marker, verify by touch and then I'm going to cut it on the spool side of the marker.

Okok, what what? Cut? Now I am totally lost. Is it my English that fails or is this something else I do not know about?

 

[Cave Diver]

Okok, what what? Cut? Now I am totally lost. Is it my English that fails or is this something else I do not know about?

If I have to use my safety reel to find the line because I'm lost off of it with no lights, I'm not going to take a chance on finding a broken line, getting tangled in main line and having to cut myself free since I dont have a buddy, or anything else.

As such, I'm not going to leave my safety spool behind, tied off to the mainline at the point that I found it. So, unless I'm carrying a second safety spool, or a jump/gap reel, or something else that I can use, I'm going to cut it free from the mainline once I've secured it to my marker. I may only have 50' left on it after this, but 50' is better than nothing. Under the circumstances outlined of this dive so far, I wouldnt take the chance of leaving it.

 

[rjack321]

Hey it was this question, good example BTW

So how would YOU answer it?

I am on the line. I have covered and uncovered my light. I have the silt cloud in the distance off the line but nothing else to go on. I place an arrow on the line pointing towards Olsen, even though that is not "my" exit. Its still the "closest" tho. I estimate 2x the gas needed to exit, which is approximately 600 psi for me, 1200psi for 2 divers. I have 2400, I can search for up to 400 psi "into" the cave.

I place a cookie on the P1 side of the arrow marking my exit path. I tie off my safety spool in-between the cookie and the arrow and search off the line for 400psi

I don't find my buddy in the silt cloud.

I pull my safety spool as I return back to the mainline. I leave both the arrow and the cookie. I turn on and deploy a backup light. I clip that to the mainline on the exit sdie of the arrow. If there's enough slack I loop the mainline around the bulb end to get the light to point towards the cookie+arrow.

I exit and either wait in the cavern zone or try to get help on the steps.