LOW ALTITUDE Flying after diving

[flyboy08]

Carry a bottle of 02 and suck on it while tooling along at 1500 AGL ....problem solved even up to 4K probably.

 

[Altamira]

Could you just plan and execute your diving as if they were altitude dives at 2000 ft, then just jump in the plane and go? Or am I way off base, since you had not acclimated to 2000 ft before and between the dives?

The appears that I am having difficulty getting the point across that a pilot, or passenger, in an aircraft is not able to accurately predict what altitude the aircraft will actually need to go to for unforseen and unplanned circumstances. I am not an expert on DCS by any stretch of the imagination, but I cannot help thinking a person's body reactions to being in a very high stress situation like an inflight emergency, would not be helpful in preventing DCS when current guidelines are disregarded. As I have said before in other posts, if you are flying with me, and we have an inflight emergency, especially at low altitude, I am going to take that plane to the highest altitude feasible, consistent with the emergency to increase our chances of not crashing. If that puts you at greater risk of DCS because you chose to break or push the envelope on dive/no fly guidelines, that is your problem. I would not put myself, or other passengers at increased risk, to accommodate a diver's foolish behavior, or poor decisions.

 

[boulderjohn]

The appears that I am having difficulty getting the point across that a pilot, or passenger, in an aircraft is not able to accurately predict what altitude the aircraft will actually need to go to for unforseen and unplanned circumstances.

Yes, it could happen. What are the odds? This is a serious question--how likely is such an event? I am not a pilot, so I have no idea.

All life has some level of risk. I will be walking down a street in a few minutes. There is a chance that a car's driver will have a seizure, run off the road, and kill me. It happens. I am going to take a risk and walk down that street anyway, because the odds of this happening are pretty remote.

Flying after diving guidelines are based on airplanes being pressurized to 8,000 feet. I have seen ScubaBoard threads in which people say they wait much longer than those guidelines say because there is a chance planes will lose pressure and those oxygen masks will pop out of the ceiling. I personally have decided that the odds of that happening are pretty remote, and I will take that chance.

So what are the odds that a plane planning to fly at 2,000 feet will encounter an emergency that will force it to climb several thousand feet more? As a non-pilot, I haven't the foggiest idea.

 

[flyboy08]

Odds favor going down and not up in a single engine aircraft

 

[gr8jab]

The appears that I am having difficulty getting the point across that a pilot, or passenger, in an aircraft is not able to accurately predict what altitude the aircraft will actually need to go to for unforseen and unplanned circumstances. I am not an expert on DCS by any stretch of the imagination, but I cannot help thinking a person's body reactions to being in a very high stress situation like an inflight emergency, would not be helpful in preventing DCS when current guidelines are disregarded. As I have said before in other posts, if you are flying with me, and we have an inflight emergency, especially at low altitude, I am going to take that plane to the highest altitude feasible, consistent with the emergency to increase our chances of not crashing. If that puts you at greater risk of DCS because you chose to break or push the envelope on dive/no fly guidelines, that is your problem. I would not put myself, or other passengers at increased risk, to accommodate a diver's foolish behavior, or poor decisions.

<conversational tone>

No, I think your point was taken, and somewhat rationalized away by the OP a few posts ago. It cannot be guaranteed that a higher altitude won't be seen during the flight, and there are risks.

However, I'm curious, what emergencies (other than unexpected weather) do you conceive where climbing doesn't have more negative than positive aspects? I get that altitude = time, but I'm struggling to conceive many scenarios where I'd climb during an emergency. Engine or fuel problems - nope, nurse it along until you find a landing spot. Electrical issues - maybe if you fear they will somehow eventually spread to engine issues, should climb, but that assumes a time-based cascading failure mode, not a usage-based progression.

I guess it is conceivable that if fuel or engine problems occurred without a safe landing area within reach, one could climb in a thermal to boost the potential gliding range. I've gotten a 152 to climb at 500fpm at idle in the Florida afternoon convection.

Cheers...

 

[Altamira]

Odds favor going down and not up in a single engine aircraft

Yes, the going down is the problem.

gr8jab said: "..However, I'm curious, what emergencies (other than unexpected weather) do you conceive where climbing doesn't have more negative than positive aspects?..."

I have also answered this question in a PM to Trace Wilson, but will post it here for others to consider. These are some of the real world emergencies and situations I have had to deal with at low altitude:
Smoke in the cockpit; engine failure; electrical failure; loss of two out of three hydraulic systems; bird strikes resulting in known or suspected aircraft damage; weather quickly turning to crap; icing; a plugged pitot tube; fuel system malfunctions; emergency fuel conditions; flight control malfunctions; physiological incidents, and sometimes just the little voice in my head that said "get the hell out of here," just to name some of the issues I have had to deal with in the low altitude environment. If you have ever had to deal with a serious emergency at low altitude, you would know that is not a place you want to be, especially if you have the additional issues and stress of worrying about getting bent.

I will thankfully admit that these are not necessarily frequent events, but they can, do, and will continue to happen to those that fly. We are mostly adults on SB, and I am not responsible for what people do, or not do. Everybody can make their own decisions as to what risks they are prepared to make, but it is best to make decisions with as much knowledge as possible.

 

[flyboy08]

Of all the perils you listed above...weather(which you didn't list?)would still be my concern in the summer tropics...in my 40 years of flying only lightening and icing gets my attention....all else I can deal with

 

[gr8jab]

Yes, the going down is the problem.

gr8jab said: "..However, I'm curious, what emergencies (other than unexpected weather) do you conceive where climbing doesn't have more negative than positive aspects?..."

I have also answered this question in a PM to Trace Wilson, but will post it here for others to consider. These are some of the real world emergencies and situations I have had to deal with at low altitude:
Smoke in the cockpit; engine failure; electrical failure; loss of two out of three hydraulic systems; bird strikes resulting in known or suspected aircraft damage; weather quickly turning to crap; icing; a plugged pitot tube; fuel system malfunctions; emergency fuel conditions; flight control malfunctions; physiological incidents, and sometimes just the little voice in my head that said "get the hell out of here," just to name some of the issues I have had to deal with in the low altitude environment. If you have ever had to deal with a serious emergency at low altitude, you would know that is not a place you want to be, especially if you have the additional issues and stress of worrying about getting bent.

I will thankfully admit that these are not necessarily frequent events, but they can, do, and will continue to happen to those that fly. We are mostly adults on SB, and I am not responsible for what people do, or not do. Everybody can make their own decisions as to what risks they are prepared to make, but it is best to make decisions with as much knowledge as possible.

Yea, none of those would cause me to climb, especially in VMC. Most notably, climbing sounds like a bad decision in an engine failure, fuel system malfunction, or emergency fuel condition. I lost an engine at 700' AGL on take-off, and my reaction was to push the nose down to get some speed before the turn back (luckily not a full 180, just 45).

Maybe I'm different because I am so used to flying around between 2000 and 4000 feet in an aircraft without any engine. I'm desensitized? Sounds like you are used to flying much more complex aircraft than I assumed the OP was discussing, so I might be tailoring my response to a fixed gear cessna or piper. Excuse that if true.

Thanks for the great conversation.

 

[Altamira]

Of all the perils you listed above...weather(which you didn't list?)would still be my concern in the summer tropics...in my 40 years of flying only lightening and icing gets my attention....all else I can deal with

I did not mention weather only because the OP clearly stated that weather could be an issue, and asked what other problems I have encountered at low altitude that might cause me to climb.

Per gr8jab, yes, if you have an engine failure on takeoff, or level flight in a single engine aircraft, you are not going to be able to climb unless you have excess airspeed that you can safely exchange for altitude. As in all inflight emergencies, the pilot has to make the ultimate decisions as to what needs to be done to increase the chances of safely landing the aircraft. What a pilot may do in an emergency, and the outcome will be based on a lot of factors including where the emergency occurs, options available to land, training, experience, judgment, piloting skills which differ significantly from one pilot to the next, and luck.

I agree that it has been a great discussion, and thank Trace Wilson for bringing it up.

 

[T.C.]

I hear you on that, but it is more in my control that you would think (@Altamira and any other pilots or ATC members, keep me honest here).

Thank You. Great response.

On the diving in NE FL, I'd love to hear of any sites you are aware of that are within OW limits. Everyone I've talked to here says that I'd need to go 20-30 mi offshore to get out of the murk here, and that all the dives are 110-130 ft, which I'm not trained for yet. Additionally, they all say that the dives are really not spectacular, and not something that would bring them back time after time, especially compared to the diving in SE FL. But, if there are sights you know of that would be worth the trip, please pass them along!!

It's not the Florida East Coast, but the Gulf Coast. Out of Panama City is some good diving (I recommend Panama City Dive Charters, and the Steel Slinger), and can be done relatively cheaply.