max depth allowed.??????

[DiverBuoy]

WreckWriter once bubbled...


It sure does. He's course director material for sure.

And people wonder how bad instructors happen....

Tom

Are you clueless? Doing things the PADI way and following standards to the letter is very appropriate conduct for Instructors everywhere. Bad instructors - violate standards, or fail to teach what a student needs to be a certified diver. WreckWriter why don't you try adding something constructive to ScubaBoard in at least one of your useless posts. Insults are a waste of everyone's time.

 

[jhelmuth]

Personally, I think you all present pearls of wisdom (some are just differnet in size). Fortunately, Ghosty took all the information and made excellent choices.

But may I enquire...

Why do so many of you take so many of these threads and make a simple issue into a battle of who is right and who is wrong. Please consider all information potentially hazardous and informative - at the same time. If you have an issue with a comment, why not consider its merits, acknowledge them, and present your side. Bashing puts up barriers to progress. All this guy wanted was some simple advice - give it and don't troll for others to argue with.

People need to consider that progress changes information - it's not static.

 

[WreckWriter]

Am I clueless? Maybe. One thing I know is that I had the little black card that says MSDT a looong time before you did. I also know that the standards you're following, by your own admission, are the dead minimums. Four 20 foot dives? That's a joke. You're putting out divers that are qualified for a swimming pool, not real life. Worried about liability I'm sure, right? After all, one won't make course director if one has a problem on a training dive. That's what I call failing to teach what is needed to be a certified diver. I bet you don't teaching buddy breathing either, right? Do you teach tables?

Once in a while I do try to add something constructive in my useless posts. Other times though, I like to poke at folks that think they're hot sh*t with 8 digit certification numbers on their instructor cards and 5 or 6 years total diving experience. Not to mention about 3 weeks on scubaboard and therefor no clue as to what I, or anyone else, has contributed here.

Tom's post... as I recall -Spectre

 

[DiverBuoy]

WreckWriter let me first apologize HUGELY - rookie mistake somehow in quoting your post, I edited it instead of quoting. But I can fully restore it with your help. Here's what I intended in a reply to your original post that you just made:

WreckWriter once bubbled...
I bet you don't teaching buddy breathing either, right? Do you teach tables?
Tom

Tom, I'm familiar with posts of yours going back as far as I can search on the scuba board. You have contributed hugely to this board. But the last couple hundred posts. What happened?

I teach buddy breathing. And if you are so familiar with the system you have surely learned from your course directors - if PADI suggests something as optional - it isn't. JUST TEACH IT. And I do. Of course I teach RDP-table, and rarely a student even shows up with a RDP-wheel - I'll accomodate but I still require them to learn the table. For all Certification dives, I expect full table usage. It's the law.

If you are suggesting otherwise, then you have indicated a flag - BAD INSTRUCTOR - violation of standards is grounds for dismissal. Doing the minimum does reduce liability - is that wrong? Does it avoid preparring students to dive in the ocean no STINKIN WAY! They get the full benefits of reef diving, sand diving, boat diving, kelp diving, and shore diving. BTW - You are right, WreckWriter you got me, and I'm not sure how. I know better than to bite on your troll. It takes a bit to really push my buttons. Congrats - you join the DB-Button-Pusher-Ranks along with Mike Ferrara as only the second one to do it. <lol>

I owe you big time!

 

[WreckWriter]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
rookie mistake

That makes my point far better than my original post did.

 

[DiverBuoy]

Again sorry!

 

[divedivedive!]

DiverBuoy,

Allow me just to make some comments on this debate. It seems that the charge being levelled here is not so much about whether standards are being followed as whether these standards are at all sensible, practiceable, realistic, or adequate.

Just because PADI says so doesn't mean it's perfect. And these guys do state rational points (well maybe not in this thread, where they seem a little prickly, but certainly previously) in their argument that PADI prepares students who, will they're not likely to die the moment they do their first non-course dive, could still have been prepared better were course requirements and standards more exacting. Why aim for mediocrity when you could easily do better?

Because it's a money thing innit? So the standards you hold in such high regard also put in a requirement that insists that you must promote PADI continued education n times per course. This one point alone proves to me at least that the primary concern of the standards isn't necessarily diver quality or diver safety. Of course, most of the syllabus is good, sensible stuff, but I believe the argument is that even so, it's only the barest minimum.

 

[Spectre]

Sans the quoted section, Tom's post has been returned in it's entirety

 

[DiverBuoy]

I'm definitely the fall guy in this thread. I was trying to share one method of approach that tries to cover all the possible contingencies. Exceeding standards is worse for the student than achieving minimums, so the best compromise is of course somewhere in between. But if you had to choose between one or the other (not that you do) you go with minimums.

Either way your point well taken. PADI isn't perfect - I'm certainly not (for proof: see screw up above)

I certainly don't teach ONLY MINIMUM STANDARDS. During checkout dives we always go deeper during the "explore" or "tour" portions. We setup the horizontal student hang-line for skills at 20 feet. And never ever are depth requirements exceeded at any point.

Again, I'll stress I DON"T TEACH ONLY MINIMUM STANDARDS. And in PADI's defense, they don't encourage it either, they just set the bar, and provide fine instructional materials and a quality educational system which allows us to produce certified divers. "Great" divers comes later.

Thanks Spectre that is exactly what was said. Whew, a narrow escape. I owe you

 

[Walter]

"Doing the minimum does reduce liability - is that wrong? Does it avoid preparring <sic> students to dive in the ocean no STINKIN WAY!"

"I certainly don't teach ONLY MINIMUM STANDARDS."

DB,

Maybe you should make up your mind before you begin your next class.

Teaching minimum standards does not always reduce liability. You teach them to handle a dive to 20 ft; then certify them to dive to 60 ft. You are setting yourself up for a suit. Your students aren't ready for the cards you issue. Sounds like a major liability issue to me.

Minimum standards are just that minimum. It's always better to give more. Do not violate standards. You should not exceed 40 ft on dive 1 & 2 or 60 ft on dives 3 & 4 because standards prohibit such a course of action. Standards specifically allow you to take dives (aged 12 or older) to 60 ft on dives 3 & 4. Doing so does not violate standards. Not coming close to that depth is not preparing your students for the real world of diving.

Personally, I believe instructors and agencies with a minimum standards attitude is a serious problem in dive education today. It's not all that hard to actually teach and to do a good job of it. Our goal should not be to "produce certified divers." Our goal should be to teach people to be competent, safe divers. Most instructors fall seriously short of that goal.

Mike pushes your buttons? Why? If Mike teaches as he claims, and I have no reason to doubt him and every reason to believe him, he is an excellent instructor, one to whom I could recommend a loved one. Unfortunately, instructors of his caliber are far too few.

divedivedive!,

"It seems that the charge being levelled<sic> here is not so much about whether standards are being followed as whether these standards are at all sensible, practiceable<sic>, realistic, or adequate."

That's an entirely different question, but I'm not sure this thread is the appropriate place to have that discussion. Be prepared to be vilified when you raise the issue.