Minimum Training Standards for All Public Safety Divers?

[Gary D.]

Nope - I don't flush the other training at all. Well, maybe some of the PADI training got flushed when the GUE training took over When I dive with the PSD team, it's a completely different mindset as well as skillset.
Being the dog on a leash by myself is, IMO in the mostly black water environments we dive in, WAY safer and more productive than having a buddy in the water. At the other end of the line is a tender. Next to the tender is a backup diver with the same PSD training and gear I have who is watching my bubbles, counting my breathing rate and is ready to get in the water if I have a problem. Why would I need a long hose if I don't have a buddy? That's who it's for isn't it? As you said - it would be a liability in the PSD diving I do. Same reason I don't have an "octo" but instead a short hose attached to a pony bottle and the reg bungied around my neck. I have no need for a pony bottle in recreational diving. In the black water environment, although I have an SPG, I can't see it. I rely on the guy on the surface to figure out how much gas I have left (they're pretty good at it too )
So yeah - two different ways of doing things that are appropriate for the diving being done. As far as I can tell, they are not safely interchangeable, at least not here. I actually have not had any trouble differentiating which environment I'm in, so no, I'm not gonna pick one over the other - I'll keep doing both.

Well put SB.

I didn't mean for anyone to ever forget his or her training that would be foolish. I'm just a firm believer of not changing styles of diving.

Lets compare PSD to DM as an example. With DM it’s basically take your time guiding someone through the proper steps and has the patience of a saint. Your making sure the people you are charged with get it right, check each other out, have a proper plan and stick to it. Now comparing it to PSD just throw out everything I just said.

My thoughts are geared more towards Rescue modes. There is no time to think about what you are doing, it’s just second nature and has to be right 100% of the time. While your getting suited up your either going through a briefing or doing an interview if your first on scene.

I’m just not a big fan of diving one style one day and another style the next day. Lots of people have trouble multi tasking and this is multi tasking to the max.

Gary D.

 

[Snowbear]

I’m just not a big fan of diving one style one day and another style the next day. Lots of people have trouble multi tasking and this is multi tasking to the max.

I guess I compare it to being a firefighter and a paramedic. If the call is medical, I'm in medic mode. If the call is fire, I'm in firefighter mode.
Same with diving. I use completely different gear (even a different drysuit) and completely different procedures. So far anyway, there is no confusion as to which role I'm playing that day.

 

[bridgediver]

I guess I compare it to being a firefighter and a paramedic. If the call is medical, I'm in medic mode. If the call is fire, I'm in firefighter mode.
Same with diving. I use completely different gear (even a different drysuit) and completely different procedures. So far anyway, there is no confusion as to which role I'm playing that day.

I think were on the same page, snowbear. This is the exact approach I take.
I wasn't saying that having a buddy in the water is better for PSD but it is better for normal exploration diving (ie wreck, reef etc) - probably wouldn't be doing this kind of diving in blackwater anyway, right?
I've had many discussions with many different people about the merits of one system to the other (LGS/DIR). I'd love to find a way to blend the 2 styles together but I don't think it can be done either. They are 2 different tools for 2 different jobs.

Gary, I understand the dangers of task loading and if the diver's experience is limited then this could be a real problem. I guess what I should've said is that as long as the diver has trained himself to max proficiency in ALL the diving styles he performs then changing from one day to the next shouldn't be a problem. Would you agree with that?

Mark

 

[BigJetDriver]

I didn't mean for anyone to ever forget his or her training. That would be foolish. I'm just a firm believer of not changing styles of diving.

Lets compare PSD to DM as an example. With DM it’s basically take your time guiding someone through the proper steps and has the patience of a saint. Your making sure the people you are charged with get it right, check each other out, have a proper plan and stick to it. Now comparing it to PSD just throw out everything I just said.

My thoughts are geared more towards Rescue modes. There is no time to think about what you are doing, it’s just second nature and has to be right 100% of the time. While your getting suited up your either going through a briefing or doing an interview if your first on scene.

I’m just not a big fan of diving one style one day and another style the next day. Lots of people have trouble multi tasking and this is multi tasking to the max.

Gary D.

Gary,

I thought that I might have to respectfully but strongly disagree with you, but thanks to your explanation, I can see more of what your thought process is, and what your starting point is.

There are specific modes, if you will, for doing specific jobs. The black-water role is best served by a diver on a tether, as a solo diver, with a diver on stand-by in full gear ready to go down the tether to assist if necessary. As Snowbear points out, gauges cannot be seen, so it is the tender's responsibility to control the dive.

As you point out, in the Rescue mode, priorities are diffferently arranged, based on the situation at hand. By your own admission, you are switching between two different syles of diving. You are, of necessity, MULTI-TASKING.

Your analogy of the Divemaster (Divecon, etc.) is faulty in this respect. In a critical situation, especially in the Rescue mode, where time-pressure is excessive, and the situation is unclear, it is absolutely IMPERATIVE, for your safety and that of others, that you have as you say: "the patience of a Saint", and, further, the capability taught in most Divemaster courses to mentally step back and keep an overview of the WHOLE SCENE. Only then, can you make the right, safe decisions. To do otherwise is to charge into a situation that may, in the end, add you to the casualty list!

Advanced training, whether it be Divemaster, Instructor, Tech, Ice, Cave, Wreck, etc. from ANY of the agencies, can only IMPROVE a diver's capability to operate in the water and deal lwith difficult situations.

Most divers are capable of multi-tasking, otherwise they wouldn't be in the water in the situations we are speaking of. Snowbear is, and by your own words, so are you.

Practice your craft, certainly, but be open-minded enough to embrace other modes of diving and training. One can learn much, by simply paying attention to what others have to say! Then you can pick and choose what works best for you!

Cheers, amigo, and keep your head down out there! :cop_2:

 

[The Kraken]

I think Snowbear has pretty much nailed it.
The whole thing is about the ability to match a particular set of diving skills to a given scenario with specific parameters.

Big Jet, I'm sure you have mutliple ratings in many types of aircraft. And in as much, I'm sure you have, more than once in your flying career, had to switch to a different set of flying skills on very, very short notice.

It's all about focusing on the task at hand.

Tooling about in a high performance biplane at lower than approved altitudes is one thing. Landing that huge behemoth in a sever cross wind is another . . .


. . . and I must say, this is the most adult "discussion" I've read on the board in a long time.

 

[BigJetDriver]

I think Snowbear has pretty much nailed it. The whole thing is about the ability to match a particular set of diving skills to a given scenario with specific parameters.

Big Jet, I'm sure you have mutliple ratings in many types of aircraft. And in as much, I'm sure you have, more than once in your flying career, had to switch to a different set of flying skills on very, very short notice.

It's all about focusing on the task at hand.

Tooling about in a high performance biplane at lower than approved altitudes is one thing. Landing that huge behemoth in a severe cross wind is another . . .


. . . and I must say, this is the most adult "discussion" I've read on the board in a long time.

Kracken,

Well said! You are absolutely right! It is ALL about being able to focus on the task at hand, and use all of your training to get the job done properly!

Cheers!

P.S.---Both types of flying are a lot of fun!

 

[Snowbear]

. . . and I must say, this is the most adult "discussion" I've read on the board in a long time.

It is refreshing, isn't it

I do want to add... Despite disagreeing on the issues of different diving on different days, I have a tremendous amount of respect for GaryD and greatly value his opinions based on the experience of probably more PSD dives than I have total dives.

 

[The Kraken]

One thing he can't stress greatly enough is the psychological aspect of PS diving. Working in those conditions is one thing, being "successful" and finding the target is another.

I flew medevac for one tour. There is no preparation that can be given . . .

 

[BigJetDriver]

One thing he (Gary D.) can't stress greatly enough is the psychological aspect of PS diving.

I constantly stress to my PSD students the point that this is NOT fun diving. It is interesting, challenging, and demanding. The rewards come from inside yourself, when you realize that what you are doing helps other people in both direct and indirect ways, and from the feeling that you have done a tough job well.

As you, Kracken, have pointed out, you can tell people what to expect, but nothing can TRULY prepare you for the reality!

BJD

 

[BenQ]

Wouldn't it be nice if there was some type of federal or state legislated minimum training requirements for all public safety divers, both paid and volunteer types? I think that it would make things much safer for everyone involved. Any thoughts?

I am new to this forum so I am chiming in kind of late here.
I work for a paid department in Washington State. We are a NFPA compliant department so for our dive program we follow the recomentations of NFPA 1006 Standards for Technical Rescue (section 13). This a newly added section. Check it out if you havn't already.

We are also obliged to comply with WAC (Washington Administrative Code) 296-37 Standards for Commercial Diving. Washingtons version of OSHA 29 CFR 1910 Subpart T (1910.401 - 440).This is a contriversial topic because of the supposed exemption...........
.................."this standard does not apply to any diving operation:

performed solely for search, rescue, or related public safety
purposes by or under the control of a government agency"

WISHA Services Department of Labor and Industrias has published a "Regional Directive" (WRD 32.15) which pretty clearly states that the only time we are exempt form the 296-37 Standard is when we are actively performing SAR activities.

"The exemption must be read in the context of the phrase "search and rescue."
Employers who engage in activities beyond search and rescue - in other words
after there is no longer hope for rescue - are covered by the standard. SAR
does not include the recovery of bodies of victims, the search for bodies, the
search for evidence, retrieval of bodies or evidence, or other sctivities that are
not time-sensitive in nature".......

At any rate, back to the National Standards question. If you are a paid department (at least in washington state) there are plenty of rules to abide by......
I'm not sure if OSHA has made any similar clarification but it's probably not far off...?

It is worth going over the OSHA standard.

Out of time, gotta go....

Take care
am