More detail requested on HOG Regs and O2/Deco bottle

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BigBubbaJ

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Location
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I see from various web sites that the HOG D1 and 2nd are only safe for 100% O2 up to 2400 psi?

Could someone please provide a little more info on the O2 readyness of this set?
I am in the market for an O2 reg for UTD Tech 1- would love to only have a single type of reg!
 
There are good reasons why most manufacturers won't certify their regulators for use in greater than EAN40 or so, largely the same reasons that your gas supplier won't offer bottled oxygen at greater than 2400 psi pressures. Given enough pressure and enough oxygen, the tiniest bit of fuel is highly dangerous. Given enough pressure and enough oxygen, pretty much everything is fuel.

The first stage seat in any regulator is a scary place: high pressure, high velocity, repeated flow restriction, flammable materials. Now add high oxygen content to that mix and you have a very serious problem. The biggest hurdle to making a regulator oxygen safe is the materials used inside the first stage. Steel, aluminum and titanium can all be removed and replaced with brass and nickel but what do you do with the soft bits? You can swap Buna for Viton or EPDM but both of those materials will burn, given enough pressure and enough oxygen. Probably the toughest issue is the high pressure seat, a toasty little bit of plastic that sits exactly at the worst place you would want something flammable - there is only so much you can do to engineer the flow path to minimize frictional, adiabatic and impingement ignition problems and the materials issue is almost insurmountable. Nobody has found a resolution for the high pressure seat issue. Yet.

HOG has done a good job (far better than most) minimizing the dangers of use in oxygen but the laws of physics still apply. Given that that it isn't possible to reduce the combustion risk to zero, any manufacturers decision to certify for oxygen use becomes a risk/reward evaluation. As scary as the inside of the first stage is, there is another place that is even more frightening: the inside of a courtroom. The laws of physics maybe inflexible but the laws of man are often whimsical - and vindictive. A little bit of prudence not only seems reasonable but necessary.

So how often are you actually going to need a regulator that can handle higher than 2400psi of pure oxygen? If a 40cf bottle at 2400psi won't hold enough O2 for your plan, is higher pressure a better solution than a bigger bottle? Remember, you won't be using this bottle below 1.6ATA, if an 80cf bottle won't hold enough gas, you're doing some very long hangs or breathing like a pig.
 
According to my calculations, that is the difference between ~31 mins @ 20 ft vs 39 mins at 20 ft. I wasn't looking to have a debate about consumption rates or gas planning and management.

I suppose in this case though, the Apeks DS4 or the Hollis certified for 100% would give me the extra 8 minutes.

I get that folks who aren't assembling in a clean room won't say they are good for 100%

TDL ships a reg also that IS certified for 100% O2 at a similar price....its just wouldnt be the same as the ones I already have.

So... I suppose I was looking for HOGs specific reasoning of 80% @3000 vs 100% @ 2400 or how they came up with those numbers.
 
Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers or dis your conditioning. Sorry. I'm not an official HOG spokesman or anything, just a guy who knows a bit about regulators.

Maybe this will help...

(2400/14.7)1.0 = (3000/14.7).80

Good luck whichever path you take - it's always good to see somebody serious about researching their buying decisions.
 
Reefrat,

Thanks for your response. I intellectually get what you are saying (and my email sent me your initial full response which I fully appreciate :) ) I suppose sometimes when I post in the manufacturers forum, I am looking for them to respond. That would be my view in how posting here would be different from the same post in the Regulators forum...

I suppose once I go through the repair course later this year I will be able to fully understand what is happening inside the 1st stages.

I have read a bunch on O2 regs and it seems like I could just clean the Oceanic Delta IV /FDX10 that I have now on my AL40 also once I convert it to DIN and lose the DVT :)

I have been super impressed by the performance of my D1s (Coldwater) and am just really confused by the "almost O2 clean" numbers that HOG publishes. Your answers are likely 100% correct.
 
His answers are correct.

The reg isn't "almost" O2 clean, it is clean to 2400 psi with 100 O2.

The limits are placed because the reality is that NO scuba regulators are designed for use with 100% O2 at 3000 psi, some may be willing to take the risk of selling them as Oxygen Clean without pressure considerations, I'm not. Think of the medical oxygen market, they would LOVE to use higher pressures than 2400 but they don't. The risk reward calculation is to much risk for the reward.

The other reason is I believe in EDUCATION, many people will believe that a O2 clean reg is perfectly safe to use with high pressure oxygen because the manuf markets it so, the risk when using 3000 psi of Oxygen in a scuba regulator are quite high, even when you do "everything right" , you should be aware of that.

Plus as pointed out, when you need more than the 2400 psi will give you a bigger bottle isn't a issue at all.
 
I suppose filling a AL40 with a transfill whip, I wouldn't get more than 2400 PSI anyway....

Looks like I can just get another HOG and be able to service them all myself.

This is EXACTLY the answer I was looking for.

Thanks!!!!!
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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