More than "Advanced", but not really "Technical"

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It's been suggested several times that decompression dives should be allowed in a single cylinder recreational kit. That is without redundancy. Anyone can audit a class. I would have no problem with a student who wants to sit through my classroom portion and even do the first day of dives where we don't go deeper than 60' and only do simulated decompression. However, I will never bring a student with a single cylinder to 150'. So no certification would be issued.

Dive-aholic, I appreciate what you are saying but as I understand it, during a TDI DP course, the student is required to have 2 dives beyond 30 meters/100 feet. My understanding is that 150 is the max but not the requirement. And again you refer to "single cylinder." I have trouble understanding how a back tank plus a slung cylinder and possbily another small deco cylinder could be considered a single cylinder. How is 2 80's on the back that much superior to a "single" plus slung?
 
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Reading through the thread I can't find anyone that has once suggested advanced diving with out redundancy. I think part of the problem is that there are some recreational divers that want additional training, that want to know more and be better divers. That would like to explore the beginnings of decompression theory to better dive recreational profiles. And these divers will never advance to full tech dives and may even feel physically unable to schlep a full tech kit not to mention the cost. Is it unreasonable for an instructor to tailor a tech class to met the needs of his student while insuring that the student gets the complete education and dive experience required by the course?

So you want to take a tech class, but without the required gear, and you think an instructor should make a special tech class to teach you how to tech dive without tech gear.

Think that through. Just run it through your mind for a few laps. Let it simmer. Caramelize a bit. Really let it cook down and think about what you're saying.
 
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So you want to take a tech class, but without the required gear, and you think an instructor should make a special tech class to teach you how to tech dive without tech gear.

Think that through. Just run it through your mind for a few laps. Let it simmer. Caramelize a bit. Really let it cook down and think about what you're saying.

No. But I would like to see experienced, competent instructors willing to tailor a class to the student rather then a one size fits all approach. I know Tec 40 does not require doubles and I am not aware of any requirement from TDI either. Think it through. If a student can meet the course requirements without the use of doubles, why should they not be allowed to do so? Perhaps we should bring in the opinion of a few sidemount divers...
 
The problem with AN/DP in a single tank and a slung pony is that it certifies you to 150ft and 100% O2. Were I an instructor, I would NOT put my name on a set of AN/DP cards for a diver who wanted to dive up to EAN50 and a single tank with a pony on rec dives, and took the class in such a manner. You have to train to the highest limits of your cert, not the lowest. If you want the AN/DP certs, you have two choices: 1) Take it in proper gear and then go back to whatever you want after class (highly inadvisable) or 2) Find a crappy instructor willing to bend standards to allow you to fit into a class (even worse).

There ARE 'tweener courses that allow you to dive "like a tech diver" without being full-blown tech courses. Fundies, UTD Essentials, and PADI's Techreational classes. Also, Tech 40 is (unfortunately) doable in a single tank. However, even with a pony (what size are you talking about??), do you have enough gas to deal with overhead obligations? How about your buddy?
 
Even SM (which I'm not a fan of for reasons that can be found elsewhere) is not the same as a single tank+what amounts to a stage bottle. Its additional complexity for no real reason other than nickel rocketry/ lack of gym time.

Volume considerations are one issue, plus weighting (clipping off a steel tank to make up for your lost volume?), configuration, an additional gas switch (you're already new at tech diving, and now you want to do an unneeded gas switch at depth when carrying a hyperoxic deco gas...), potentially low gas volume in the donated tank (breath down the "stage", then you've only got 1 tank left, or manage it more like independent doubles, which adds additional gas management complexities).

For what? So a diver can cheap out and not take the proper gear on a dive? Or because they can't lift 2 tanks? But they can lift 3? Negative, ghostrider.
 
No. But I would like to see experienced, competent instructors willing to tailor a class to the student rather then a one size fits all approach. I know Tec 40 does not require doubles and I am not aware of any requirement from TDI either. Think it through. If a student can meet the course requirements without the use of doubles, why should they not be allowed to do so? Perhaps we should bring in the opinion of a few sidemount divers...

First of all, there are classes that are part way between technical diving and recreational diving. For example, there is a PADI distinctive specialty called TecReational Diver. Not many people are certified to teach it, but it exists. There are other such classes.

Next, some instructors offer classes that are completely flexible--you pay for time with them, and they teach whatever is appropriate to your needs.

(I do both of the above.)

Finally, different technical instructors will impose different levels of requirements on the introductory courses, as long as they meet the minimum requirements.

I doubt, however, that in any case any instructor will teach true accelerated (multi-gas) decompression procedures outside of a formal class. That is because it is, frankly, a dangerous process. They will want to make sure that you have fully mastered the skills required to do it safely. If an instructor teaches a little bit about such decompression and then has a former student go out, have a problem for which the student was not adequately prepared, and die, then the instructor has potential liability.
 
No. But I would like to see experienced, competent instructors willing to tailor a class to the student rather then a one size fits all approach. I know Tec 40 does not require doubles and I am not aware of any requirement from TDI either. Think it through. If a student can meet the course requirements without the use of doubles, why should they not be allowed to do so? Perhaps we should bring in the opinion of a few sidemount divers...
I think you may be missing some points. TDI Deco Procedures (DP) certifies you to 150 ft, with (single-gas) deco using up to 100% O2. Tec40 does not; you stay within recreational depths, and deco (max 10 mins) as if you were using air, even though you may use up to 50% O2. Neither Tec40 nor TDI requires doubles, but redundancy IS required. The TDI requirement is rather loosely stated, but many instructors want to see doubles (or sidemount) as the best-practices kind of redundancy. The Tec40 statement requires an H/Y-valve (and two first stages, each with one second stage) or a 30cuft pony as minimum redundancy, so it is NOT a standard recreational rig.

Here is the major point: you can achieve what it sounds like you want to achieve (minimal equipment requirements beyond recreational) with Tec40, but you also have minimal deco allowed and non-accelerated deco times. If you want to go beyond that, you go to Tec45 or TDI DP, remove some depth limitations, remove some deco gas limitations....and up the equipment requirements.

And this is not forcing you to do things other than the course requirements; those ARE the course requirements.

---------- Post added January 14th, 2014 at 03:20 PM ----------

First of all, there are classes that are part way between technical diving and recreational diving. For example, there is a PADI distinctive specialty called TecReational Diver. Not many people are certified to teach it, but it exists. There are other such classes.

Next, some instructors offer classes that are completely flexible--you pay for time with them, and they teach whatever is appropriate to your needs.

(I do both of the above.)

Finally, different technical instructors will impose different levels of requirements on the introductory courses, as long as they meet the minimum requirements.

I doubt, however, that in any case any instructor will teach true accelerated (multi-gas) decompression procedures outside of a formal class. That is because it is, frankly, a dangerous process. They will want to make sure that you have fully mastered the skills required to do it safely. If an instructor teaches a little bit about such decompression and then has a former student go out, have a problem for which the student was not adequately prepared, and die, then the instructor has potential liability.
I agree with most of this, especially the part I've highlighted in red.

Note the many in-between recreational and technical classes, including the oft-mentioned TecReational Distinctive Specialty (not promoted or sold by PADI, but approved by PADI) do NOT actually train you to do deco, even 10-minute deco, nor do they give you any in-water practice with it. [TecReational talks about deco, from a someone off-center point of view, but the others do not even talk about it.] Those transitional classes are mainly about equipment and gas planning; you would get some of this in the Solo/Self-Sufficient Diver classes, too.

If you want to do deco (or are afraid you might have to do it inadvertently), you take a deco class and do the relevant in-water training. Tec40 is the entry level, and you may take it without doubles but not in pure recreational gear, and if you do it that way then you will have some catch-up work (and dives) to do before you can enter Tec45, should you choose to.
 
Interesting arguments. Several have mentioned the use of high EAN concentrations. The course for this, TDI Advanced Nitrox specifically has no doubles requirement and it is actually fairly easy to find an instructor willing to teach this without full "tech gear." It seems to be the DP course that raises the "tech" radar and the apparently arbitrary rules such as doubles. I even spoke with one instructor more than willing to teach AN but would not include DP unless the diver had all his own gear including "tech regs."

Some are also making this a personal argument. It's not about me but about divers like me. Ones that may be hungry for more advanced instructions but unable/willing to make that huge investment just to learn. It's not about cutting corners, that's the whole point. Again, I repeat, if a student can meet the course requirements without "full tech gear" in this example doubles, why should they not be allowed to do so.

tursiops, you just made my argument. The doubles is an arbitrary, instructor based requirement, that can be a hardship for some divers that just want the knowledge with the potential to go more gear intensive in the future if they find this is the right option for them.

I appreciate all the input and you have given me a lot to think about. But I just can't agree with the idea that it is not possible or that it is uneven safe to explore and learn advanced dive skills without going the one size fits all "full tech" route. And I hope that perhaps I gave gotten at least a few instructor to think about the hardcore tech approach that some have shown and instead consider each student's individual needs within the confines of a safe and through dive course.

Lisa
 
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Note the many in-between recreational and technical classes, including the oft-mentioned TecReational Distinctive Specialty (not promoted or sold by PADI, but approved by PADI) do NOT actually train you to do deco, even 10-minute deco, nor do they give you any in-water practice with it. [TecReational talks about deco, from a someone off-center point of view, but the others do not even talk about it.] Those transitional classes are mainly about equipment and gas planning; you would get some of this in the Solo/Self-Sufficient Diver classes, too.

The TecReational Diver class goes into decompression theory in greater depth than standard recreational course, but it has no decompression procedures instruction at all. It also does include gas planning. Its primary focus, however, is on diving skills. Student works on buoyancy, trim, and the kind of kicking skills usually associated with technical diving. (Frog kicks, modified frog kicks, modified flutter kicks, back kicks, and helicopter turns.)\

There is another distinctive specialty class I wrote, the outline of which I distributed to a large number of divers around the world. I have no idea how many people teach it now. It is an advanced dive planning course, and it goes into pretty much anything you would need to know to be able to plan and execute safe dives in just about any environment. It is more detailed in most issues than a typical dive master course, and students will come out of that course with more a lot of learning that DMs don't have.
 

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