Mr Chattertons Self Reliance Article...

[Colliam7]

Having just read John Chatterton's excellent article on Tech Diving and Self Reliance, I find myself very much in agreeance with John also. . . . I have been climbing for 16 years now, all sorts of different climbing, including Single pitch Traditional leading and Multipitch. . . . just like Diving, Climbing is a Solitary Sport enjoyed in the company of others.

Pete, good post, and good point about the similarities between climbing and diving. I appreciate where you are coming from. I was also a climber in my younger days, spent quite a bit of time at altitude in North America, and I primarily climbed with one person. We were friends, and climbing buddies, and we looked out for each other. But, we said to each other many times, if it came to a choice between probable joint demise and possible individual survival, we would each move on alone and leave the other behind. Never had to make the choice, or even come close. But, I remember a couple of descents well, one where my buddy lagged behind, and I kept going, and another where I lagged behind, and he kept going. That was the way it should have been.

I was struck by the coincidence of your background, and your comments, because when I read Chatteron's blog, I was immediately reminded of Reinhold and Gunter Messner. I remember reading one of Reinhold's accounts of the fatal climb, in which he described how Gunter was trailing him on the crossing descent, how Gunter gradually fell further and further behind, and finally was just no longer there when Reinhold looked back. Reinhold survived because he kept going. It was a situation where each man had to have a determination to survive individually, and there was little that Reinhold could do for his brother. (Yes, there were all sorts of post-event accusations, condemnations, court actions, etc., but those are not germaine to the point.)

You make a couple of statements that I think are worth the time of every diver to consider:

Putting too much reliance on another human being. . .Ill prepared, mentally and skill wise . . . Don't RELY on another human being to save your life. Do it yourself: If the answer to that statement is "How"? then why are you in the water?

I believe these are reasonable considerations for any diver, at any depth. I did not see the 'Every man for himself' (aka, screw the other guy) attitude in Chatterton's comments that some others did. What I read was, 'Plan BEFORE THE DIVE to be able to take care of yourself, so I don't have to. I will do the same, and both of us have a better chance of coming back alive.' OK, maybe I am the one who missed something. But, what I read was an attitude that divers pursuing deep, technical dives must have a mindset of being able to get themselves safely to the surface without depending on another diver. If another diver can help, great. Just don't depend on that. There is NOTHING wrong with that, and I would say that recreational divers should have the same mindset. How many times have people on SB railed against 'trust me' dives? So, the vigor of the reaction to Chatterton's comments is a little surprising.

 

[261311]

But John's article deals with technical dives. Deep technical dives. Where you are on tight schedules with gas supplies planned for you. Not for you and your buddy. If you even have one. On dives such as the Doria it is understood, or should be, that if you are diving with someone they are unlikely to be able to donate gas once you are on the bottom. And maybe not even then. A "buddy" under these circumstances is more likely there for one of two reasons should you have a serious, catastrophic problem.

Either to send your body to the surface or mark it's location for the recovery divers. You might see them accompany a buddy to the surface only so far as they do not put themselves at risk. Deep technical diving is not unlike solo diving. It takes the same mindset. That being if you have a serious problem you need to accept the fact that you are quite likely going to die.

Just because you may have someone with you on the dive does it mean they can or will help you.

Newer divers, again, have no business doing these dives.

This truly should drive conservative diving home to any of us with little experience. It definitely does for me, thank you.

 

[Buoyant1]

The discussion is interesting, but I don't get why some people won't just let different types of diving "be", and stop criticizing how some people dive?!?!

I'm sure Chatterton and his diving partners know the situation that they are diving within..."don't expect me to bail you out, check and re-check your situation, and see you at the surface...unless one of us xxcks up!" I'm sure they KNOW what they are getting in to.

For others, it's a case of "this is what we do if THIS happens, this is what we do if THAT happens"


In the different worlds, there are different protocols, I just don't get why some people won't let it alone.

Everyone is trying to do their best, and survive their dives, how THEY choose to survive it, is how THEY work it...I'm sure that the contingency that has been to the Doria, and lived to tell the tale by diving in the fashion Chatterton mentioned is having no trouble with that protocol.

Whatever works for you is right...hopefully the person you're diving with knows PRIOR to the dive that you won't be donating if his dive goes pear shaped, understands the risks, and has the option to NOT do the dive...Now if you sprung that on me at depth...I'd have issue with you!

 

[danvolker]

But John's article deals with technical dives. Deep technical dives. Where you are on tight schedules with gas supplies planned for you. Not for you and your buddy. If you even have one. On dives such as the Doria it is understood, or should be, that if you are diving with someone they are unlikely to be able to donate gas once you are on the bottom. And maybe not even then. A "buddy" under these circumstances is more likely there for one of two reasons should you have a serious, catastrophic problem.

Either to send your body to the surface or mark it's location for the recovery divers. You might see them accompany a buddy to the surface only so far as they do not put themselves at risk. Deep technical diving is not unlike solo diving. It takes the same mindset. That being if you have a serious problem you need to accept the fact that you are quite likely going to die. .

I am not quite sure why none of the DIR's or GUE's are jumping in on this.

We believe in planning to have enough gas for ourselves AND our buddy, to get us back to the surface. This is on tech or recreational dives... That is DIR or GUE.

Planning a dive with just barely enough gas for only you, leaving no extra that could be donated without you potentially losing your life, is not smart diving. It absolutely should not be confused with Technical Diving. It should be considered bad planning, and this from bad training.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I am not quite sure why none of the DIR's or GUE's are jumping in on this.

We believe in planning to have enough gas for ourselves AND our buddy, to get us back to the surface. This is on tech or recreational dives... That is DIR or GUE.

... perhaps because after having gone down that road a few times, the ruts in the road just ain't worth navigating.

There's way more than just DIR/GUE who train by that philosophy. All of my tech certs are NAUI, IANTD or NSS-CDS ... and they've all had that approach to gas planning.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[261311]

I'm pretty sure no dive agency advocates you not having enough gas for you and your buddy safely- that would lead to lawsuits. This comes from divers with experience (or those who aren't and dumb) being comfortable with what they do, even confident trying to extend their time on the bottom for their own fun. As said above, it's just not safe diving. Some people probably get an adrenaline rush from the distinct closeness to the risks of death but let them do that quietly.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I don't think John is saying "don't ask for, or offer, help".

John was VERY clear in stating do not ask for help no matter what the circumstances (on deco dives). If you ask you will get pushed away. If you fight, he will fight harder and win. That message was perfectly clear.

 

[boulderjohn]

I am reminded of the words written on a slate in a deep dark hole in South Africa: Dave's not coming back.

I don't think anyone in the world criticises Don Shirley for not descending to 900 feet to attempt a rescue. After that it is just a matter of degrees.

Don did not have the equipment to go that deep. He did start down and had an equipment implosion. He had no choice, so of course no one could criticize him.

 

[Peter Guy]

cephasiii -- please review my post regarding dying in 5 feet of water and dive planning. As NWGD wrote, EVERY time you dive, you need to plan. For example, a couple of years ago a local diver did die in about 5 feet of water because he hadn't properly planned, and executed the plan, for his dive. What happened? He got knocked down in 5 feet (perhaps less) of water and couldn't stand up because of all the gear he had -- and his air was turned off.

To those who have asked -- Why argue that Mr. C's article is not appropriate? Well, for me, there are two reasons:

a. His comments about "fighting off" someone who came to him in distress and needing (wanting?) gas; and

b. His status as an "expert" (and yes, I am putting that in quotes) on recreational diving. (OK, why the quotation marks? Because, quite honestly, his POV is so far out of the mainstream of recreational dive training that it should disqualify him as an expert on recreational diving. BTW, recreational diving is different from commercial, military or scientific diving but most of what we call "technical" diving IS recreational diving. This is NOT an argument against solo diving but solo diving is NOT diving with a buddy (unless his name is "Al" -- as in "My buddy, Al 40") regardless of what solo divers call the other person who might also be in the water.)

For those of you who have forgotten what a buddy is, here is one description:

The buddy system is an absolutely necessary diving procedure that must be understood and followed before every skin or scuba dive. Simply defined, it means that no skin or scuba diver, regardless of ability or experience, should ever undertake a dive alone but must be accompanied by at least one other qualified diver who has acknowledged and accepted the responsibility for the partner's safety under any circumstances requiring mutual assistance.

That is from page 181, The New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving (Fifth Revised Edition) 1957!

I submit THIS is the standard description of the buddy system -- not the "same day, same ocean" decription by some on this thread. It was "the rule" in 1957, it is still "the rule" today.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Because we were going in the same direction on the same wreck. It doesn't mean we were buddies in the same sense as it would have been on a simple shallow reef dive. This is where people are not getting it. .

so how does the dive briefing go?? I will be heading west, if i see your MFing light shine anywhere near me I am going to kick your ass. See this regulator here around my neck? You touch it you die. I will kill you. See this here? this is my lunch.. if you touch it, I am going to kick your ass... i counted the cookies in the zip lock bag, they are all for me and none are for you; if one is missing, I'm going to fight you for it.

If you feel something against your facemask on the descent down the anchor line... it will probably be my fin tips and I WILL be trying to kick your mask off... because you shouldn't be going on this dive if you need a mask anyway.

HAVE A NICE DIVE!