Mr Chattertons Self Reliance Article...

[MXGratefulDiver]

What is it that would prevent someone from rendering aid to another diver on the Doria? Max depth on that dive's about 240 feet, right? I've been to near that depth (230 and 235, respectively) on a couple of wrecks, and haven't felt in any way restricted in my ability to render aid to the person I was diving with at the time, should it have been needed. In fact, various contingencies for doing so were an overt part of our dive plan.

What makes it so difficult?

If I'm going to do a dive where I don't think my buddy could help me in an emergency, I'll choose not to bring a buddy ... as with any dive, why bring it if you can't use it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cephasiii]

What is it that would prevent someone from rendering aid to another diver on the Doria? Max depth on that dive's about 240 feet, right? I've been to near that depth (230 and 235, respectively) on a couple of wrecks, and haven't felt in any way restricted in my ability to render aid to the person I was diving with at the time, should it have been needed. In fact, various contingencies for doing so were an overt part of our dive plan.

What makes it so difficult?

If I'm going to do a dive where I don't think my buddy could help me in an emergency, I'll choose not to bring a buddy ... as with any dive, why bring it if you can't use it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Were you diving Trimix? They were not, and narcosis and panic/excited heart rate don't mix. I am only assuming that at those depths on air and in those dark conditions, trying to share air and ascend would put both in trouble. I am pretty sure I read that Shadow Divers some where. I will try to find it and quote it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I am reminded of the words written on a slate in a deep dark hole in South Africa: Dave's not coming back.

I don't think anyone in the world criticises Don Shirley for not descending to 900 feet to attempt a rescue. After that it is just a matter of degrees.

As I recall the story, he couldn't even if he had wanted to ... he didn't have the gas for it. But "if anything goes wrong, don't attempt a rescue" was part of their dive plan. That was an extreme circumstance, and a dive unlike anything that the vast majority of tech divers will never have to deal with.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added February 14th, 2013 at 05:27 AM ----------

Were you diving Trimix? They were not, and narcosis and panic/excited heart rate don't mix. I am only assuming that at those depths on air and in those dark conditions, trying to share air and ascend would put both in trouble. I am pretty sure I read that Shadow Divers some where. I will try to find it and quote it.

... all that makes a case for is not diving something like the Doria on air. Once that decision's made, taking the approach they took amounts to nothing more than a rationalization for a poor decision. It boils down not to preparedness, but to how thin you want to shave your safety margins and contingencies on what you know is a risky dive ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DevonDiver]

The WKPP proved conclusively that when you PICK your team mates, and train with them, that team based diving can accomplish dives far more challenging than anything that could be accomplished solo.

Dan, I don't disagree at all. The issue I have is how well you can ever truly know your buddy. What I'm talking about (and I think John is too) is that in-extremis moment... when bravery and willingness to self-sacrifice either shines through, or it doesn't....

 

[danvolker]

Were you diving Trimix? They were not, and narcosis and panic/excited heart rate don't mix. I am only assuming that at those depths on air and in those dark conditions, trying to share air and ascend would put both in trouble. I am pretty sure I read that Shadow Divers some where. I will try to find it and quote it.

Again, this is false. George and Bill and I did many hundreds of deep air dives in the 90's before George came up with our Trimix solutions. We dove all the deep fishing hotspots we could hear about from the old fisherman, and all the known wrecks and reefs. A majority of this was on reefs and wrecks in the neighborhood of 260 to 280 feet deep. On air. We would be diving double 80's, sometimes with a 30 cu foot bottle slung stage style full of O2. At least one of us would be tasked with towing a torpedo float, and or the clipping or unclipping of the float on the wreck----the plan back then was to ALWAYS have a safety diver on the boat that would be coming down to us on on the line, the 50 foot stop, at the time we planned to be there( and there would be no excuse NOT to be there at this time). This safety diver would be one of us--a tech diver, and it would be his time to play safety diver--each would take turns through the season on this( well, I can't remember George ever taking a turn at this
The safety diver, now at about 35 minutes after we had splashed on 280 foot dive, would swim to each in the group doing deco at 50 feet, and check air supply for each. If anyone had a problem, it was the safety diver's job to figure out how to best handle it. Obviously there bringing down more air was easy, if needed. They would be up and down as required during the deco, and most of us would do 100% O2 at 20 feet for final stop, then the deco would be over, and the safety diver would help with getting the heavy gear on the boat, as needed.

There was never a time when narcosis or depth would have caused us NOT to be good buddies to each other...We did this on the high current dives ( at least 3 to 4 mph gulf stream intrusion drifts) at 280, and we did this on dives off of Fort Pierce with vis as bad as the Doria, but with much greater depth and currents, and lots more very large marine life. We had zero Rule Number One violations, so we never had any problems our buddy team could not handle easily.

When George brought us Trimix, and switched us all over, this just got much easier to prevent poor judgement calls at depth. With deep air, the hope is that if one buddy makes a poor choice, one of the others will catch this, and correct for it. This did work for us, but given the choice between deep air or Trimix, you are going to choice Trimix for this every time you are going beyond 170 feet. Most Gue's will chose this every time they are deeper than 120 feet, because they believe so deeply in maintaining skills and problem solving ability at depth.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Part of it is the mission. Diving the Doria is not just about going down and looking around. It may be for some. But reality is it's often about artifacts. Locating, securing, and bringing them back to the surface. It is done in teams at times but often it's get there and you go this way while I go that way. The gas is planned for that. Not to get what you can and have enough for both of you to get back if it hits the fan. Selfish? Some would see it that way. Others do not. But when this is the objective everyone on the boat knows it. Individual planned run times are known by the crew. Not just teams. I have studied the procedures for years in the hopes I would someday get to do it. I accept them should that ever happen. Some don't. That's fine and they are diving their conscience. But theirs has no right to dictate mine. Their diving guidelines are fine and work for them. They may not work for someone else. But that is up to the individual and their loved ones to decide. period. As long as it's clear from the get go that this is what the divers are doing. As some have said they would not want to be on a boat with those who take a different path, that's their choice and theirs alone. It does not dictate the choice of others.

I know I will not die like my grandparents. Immobile and feeble in a hospital bed. If I have any say in the matter. I will not get to that point.

My loved ones know that. If that is against another's beliefs, too bad. You have no right to tell me how I should go. Same with the dives one chooses to do in the manner they choose to do them unless they foolishly put other people at risk like the Cozumel bounce divers did. No one expected that. On the dives John is talking about it is always known that there is a possibility someone will not come back. It is planned for.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[danvolker]

Dan, I don't disagree at all. The issue I have is how well you can ever truly know your buddy. What I'm talking about (and I think John is too) is that in-extremis moment... when bravery and willingness to self-sacrifice either shines through, or it doesn't....

I have had this happen to buddies I was with, that a catastrophic event occurred, and I had no thought whatsoever, about NOT helping them. While I have never had such a problem, I have an absolute certainty that Bill Mee or George would help in exactly the same manner.

Maybe on a baby dive, in 60 feet of water, you don't really need to "know" your buddy. It is pretty hard to get killed in 60 feet of water, open ocean...it is just so easy to dive in that environment. At 280 feet, you really DO need to KNOW your buddy, and have done plenty of dives with them before. If you don't really KNOW them, then they are NOT a buddy for a real tech dive.

---------- Post added February 14th, 2013 at 09:50 AM ----------

Part of it is the mission. Diving the Doria is not just about going down and looking around. It may be for some. But reality is it's often about artifacts. Locating, securing, and bringing them back to the surface. It is done in teams at times but often it's get there and you go this way while I go that way. The gas is planned for that. Not to get what you can and have enough for both of you to get back if it hits the fan. Selfish? Some would see it that way. Others do not. But when this is the objective everyone on the boat knows it.

And this is a principle reason for so many deaths on the Doria. That, and no comprehensive training that would have prepared the dead divers, for Chaterton's style of Every man for himself diving.

---------- Post added February 14th, 2013 at 10:06 AM ----------

I am reminded of the words written on a slate in a deep dark hole in South Africa: Dave's not coming back.

I don't think anyone in the world criticises Don Shirley for not descending to 900 feet to attempt a rescue. After that it is just a matter of degrees.

The DIR response to attempting a 900 foot depth dive, is that this is akin to driving a motorcycle at 100 mph over a jump, and clearing 40 busses, then landing on the other side. It is NOT a technical dive, it is a STUNT. It can not be planned with intelligence, on open circuit, or with the current technology in rebreathers--not in the open ocean. Deco is too long, there are too many contingencies you can't plan for, and there is no way a team will be able to make a smart plan for this---so the team will not GO.

An individual can choose to shoot for a crazy stunt. It won't prove anything important, maybe it is a daredevil thrill, I don't know. This is the type of thing that got Sheck killed, and George blamed this on the foolish ideas of those Sheck had been diving with at the time--their putting ideas of deep records into his head--this was a dangerous peer group, out for glory, with no more common sense than an Evil Kneival.

So yeah, on a 900 foot dive, the gas share and a buddy concept could never have been planned, because a smart buddy team will not be doing this dive in the first place.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Maybe on a baby dive, in 60 feet of water, you don't really need to "know" your buddy. It is pretty hard to get killed in 60 feet of water, open ocean...it is just so easy to dive in that environment.

Somebody should've explained that to Wes Skiles. I really, really dislike the term "baby dive". Anytime your head is underwater it can be a dangerous dive if you're not sufficiently prepared for the contingencies needed to deal with the unexpected. Terminology like "baby dive" just encourages complacency ... and as some have found out the hard way, complacency can kill you ... even on a "baby dive".

You're either prepared for the dive or you're not ... regardless of depth.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

Somebody should've explained that to Wes Skiles. I really, really dislike the term "baby dive". Anytime your head is underwater it can be a dangerous dive if you're not sufficiently prepared for the contingencies needed to deal with the unexpected. Terminology like "baby dive" just encourages complacency ... and as some have found out the hard way, complacency can kill you ... even on a "baby dive".

You're either prepared for the dive or you're not ... regardless of depth.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

No Bob, that was a Rebreather dive. The rebreather can make any dive dangerous. On open curcuit, it would have been a baby dive for Wes.

---------- Post added February 14th, 2013 at 10:52 AM ----------

Another "baby dive" where a rebreather turns it into a dangerous dive......

The Obit....

Henry Kendall, a Nobel Prize-winning physicist and pioneer of the environmental movement among scientists, died in Florida on Monday the 15th of February 1999, while exploring the nature he fought to preserve.

Kendall, 72, was taking photographs on a rebreather dive with the National Geographic Society, at the Wakulla SpringsState Park in Florida. Fellow divers found him lying unconscious on the bottom in shallow water, said Capt. GeneMcCarthy of the Wakulla County Sheriff's Department.
"He was flown by life flight to Tallahassee Memorial Hospital, where he was pronounced dead," McCarthy said.
Kendall, a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, shared the 1990 Nobel Prize for Physics with Jerome Friedman and Richard Taylor. The three were the first to observe traces of quarks, sub-atomic particles thought to form the basis of 99 percent of all matter.

This was another very smart man, that was in conditions essentially as easy as a pool dive....but rather than the relative safety of using Open Circuit scuba, this man had chosen the technology of a rebreather, and with catastrophic consequences.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

No Bob, that was a Rebreather dive. The rebreather can make any dive dangerous. On open curcuit, it would have been a baby dive for Wes.

Nonetheless ... he took it too lightly, or he'd still be alive. And your statement made no qualifications for the type of equipment a "baby diver" was using.

I've known of people to drown on 30-foot OW dives. Hell, I know of one guy who drowned in water shallow enough to stand up in ... but, with all his tech gear on, he couldn't. And, since he was being "self-reliant", there was no one handy to help him.

Complacency kills ... and babies don't dive. Terminology like that does nothing for our sport except encourage complacency and stroke the egos of people who believe they're above such things. As in the case of Wes, sometimes they're proven to be mistaken.

Every dive needs to be taken seriously ... or else you shouldn't go.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)