Mr Chattertons Self Reliance Article...

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GUE is constantly evaluating developments in diving. I know members of the training council have experimented with at least a couple of CCR models over the last few years. Several of the cave instructors used to dive sidemount, so they are quite familiar with both the concept and the execution.

You have to remember that two of your goals are simply antithetical to the core values of team diving -- one is absolute self-reliance, in the sense of diving solo in the company of others, and the other is being able to work random mixed teams. The problems are related: The equipment and procedures are adopted with an eye toward functioning as a team, which means the team has to function. This is one of the places where I think we talk past one another a lot. If you have never had the pleasure of diving extensively with equally well-trained and similarly equipped and inclined divers, I can see where you would be very likely to dismiss the idea that buddies are even very useful.

I HAVE dived with people in sidemount (I've done some fairly reasonable cave diving with them) because we sat down and talked over how they were configured and what they were going to do in a variety of situations . . . but more importantly, I trusted those people to be able to function as part of a team, even though it might not be as seamless as it would be with a pure GUE group. But I couldn't do that at random. I wouldn't walk into a dive park and agree to do a significant cave dive with somebody I'd just met (and I seriously thank the people who have done that with me, although they knew a bit about me from SB before we actually dove together).

UTD has taken a different tack, and tried to create a set of systems that maintain what Andrew and Jeff saw as the core of the DIR ethos, which was donating the primary. The setups they have come up with are interesting, but perhaps you would view them as being more open-minded. GUE looks at it differently -- the vast majority of the diving that is out there to be done can be done in traditional, backmounted gear, and standardizing equipment and procedures for that is very easy, so why complicate the situation by bringing in configurations that aren't necessary for the vast majority of the diving that is out there to be done?
 
My impression is that GUE would see this statement as counter to their principles.



I'm pretty sure that they could reconfig you for the class rather easily without too much "new gear" expense. Your "solitary sport" observation aside, you still sound like a potential fit, you may want to give them a try.



Allow me a few comments, if you would. I see it as extremely important for the student to research a course or regimen before committing to it.

My internet understanding of GUE comes from this board, GUE's website, the documents, and all the Hogarthian material that I could find. I purchased the two 5th D-X DVD's: Intro to Tech and Technical DVD. I have had great discussions, in real life and online, with several practitioners that I admire. I do believe that I understand your concepts, nothing more.

I have come to understand that you require a limited gear selection for several defensible reasons, one being that doing so makes it possible for your instructors to get an entire class into trim and allow for your core drills. I also believe that just signing up and trying one's very best will not overcome lack of preparation or bad buoyancy control. And as for the pre-fundies mentoring issue, you see it as consistent with the team diving concept. Sometimes you just need to state the obvious, I also "didn't get it" for quite a while. The OP said volumes with "Solitary Sport enjoyed in the company of others". A person of this mind, such as myself, finds the mentoring concept to be extremely un-natural to the point of being a cop-out by the instructors. I no longer hold this view, due to internet learning.

All this front work can be called "self taught". If I missed something big with regard to your doctrine, then that is what GUE needs to better advertise.



Indeed. And if I ever were to take fundies, you Mr. Shockey, would be one of my top two choices as an instructor. Right now, I'm pretty sure that it just isn't for me. And being a poor fit doesn't mean that I can't see a differing point of view as being perfectly valid for others. I enjoy discussions with informed and passionate people, but quickly tire of zealots. Well in all truth, the Rambo / Seal Team 6 thing was quite entertaining. (Dan)

I don't disagree with much of what you say however I would point out that anyone has access to pretty much any GUE instructor via the internet and I always try to respond to anyone who contacts me. Why get the information second hand when you can go directly to the horses mouth? I have a ton of useful information that I regularly provide enquiring minds. The problem with the internet is the signal to noise ratio can be very low and for some reason people continue to perpetuate mistruths and misunderstandings about GUE and unless someone regularly points this out, it leads to further misunderstandings.

I don't know what you don't know, thus I can not tell you what you are missing. I have never had a single student that said at the end of any GUE class that it wasn't worth it, and these students run the gamut from technical instructor trainers to OW divers with 25 dives.

In a recent class I brought up my belief that indirectly, we probably have a greater overall influence on diving education than we do directly. By this I mean that we may teach "x" number of students a year, but that we have caused most other agencies to reevaluate their own course offerings in light of our training. Just look at the number of agencies that started to offer what they felt was the equivalent of some of our training. I see this every time I teach an instructor and they take some of what they have learned and incorporate it into their own training. Sometimes it is good, other times they get it wrong but more often than not, the divers they turn out are better equipped to recreate in the UW world we all love.

best,

Guy
 
...//...You have to remember that two of your goals are simply antithetical to the core values of team diving -- one is absolute self-reliance, in the sense of diving solo in the company of others, and the other is being able to work random mixed teams. ...//...

Half right. I don't do "teams". Diving is how I decompress (and God knows I need it). I don't do underwater missions. Well, unless you call drifting across a scattered wreck a mission.

...//...You have to remember that two of your goals are simply antithetical to the core values of team diving -- one is absolute self-reliance, in the sense of diving solo in the company of others, ..//...

When I am buddy diving, I always tend to sacrifice my dive by being overly attentive. Yes, I have no preconceived notion that my buddy will be anything more than a burden. I don't care what gear my buddy is diving, I'm there (as someone well-described) as a second brain.

I sometimes dive a yellow 7' long hose, sometimes it's black, when solo it is the proper length for me and faber is my buddy. I was mugged for air once, I quickly got my long hose back sans mouthpiece. Now, I plan to grab the diver, donate primary, clip my 19 cuft pony on a chest D-ring, open, purge and plug. That way the next time I experience a Polaris / dirt dart I know that I have given them something of value. I might even break trim to do so...
 
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Speaking of mugging, I am not wading back in to this to mug or be mugged :) .....

On the topic of getting mugged on a tech dive..... In South Fl we have had some boats that would drop 25 tech divers on a tech wreck, and you might know 4 of them....Long ago we stopped doing trips on boats like that.
At least speaking for my tech buddies, we would book boats where the captain would control the booking to "our group"--whether it meant a private charter, or it meant that any divers outside of our group, would need to be approved by us for the tech dive. We also have a very large selection of great tech wrecks and tech reefs, so if somehow a party boat of zombie divers had descended on the wreck we had planned on, we have many other good choices. Normally this has not been a problem......Fishing boats are a bigger problem :)
I do agree that having dangerous OOA tech divers near you on a penetration, is a problem that needs to be avoided.

I get the impression that in the North East wreck dives, the choices of what boat, and how many divers, is not quite as easy to control as it is in South Florida....
For those in this discussion, what is charter boat situation in this regard, and what is your normal method of preventing dangerous divers to be in close proximity to you on a tech dive?
 
When I am buddy diving, I always tend to sacrifice my dive by being overly attentive. Yes, I have no preconceived notion that my buddy will be anything more than a burden. I don't care what gear my buddy is diving

I agree! If you dive with someone who hasn't had their situational awareness honed (and my goodness, do I remember those days for me) you have to watch them, and it DOES take away from the fun of the dive. On the other hand, when you dive with someone who has had a lot of training in awareness, the dive is effortless. I vividly remember an evening where I did the first dive with a novice who was having HORRIBLE buoyancy issues. I spent the whole dive watching her crawl on the bottom and then catching her when she went flying toward the surface (and wondering who on earth ever certified the poor lady). I was terribly stressed, and my friends saw it and gave me one of our best divers as a buddy for the second dive. From the moment we slipped under the surface, he was exactly where I expected him to be, doing what I expected him to do . . . within sixty seconds, I had drawn a huge sigh of relief (if it took THAT long) and relaxed into a long, utterly delightful dive, where both of us spent a lot of our attention spotting critters and sharing them with one another, BECAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE TO SPEND THAT ATTENTION MAKING SURE WE STAYED TOGETHER. That's the essence of team diving, right there.
 
I was mugged for air once, I quickly got my long hose back sans mouthpiece.
Why bother with a long hose if you are just going to rip it back out of the OOA divers mouth?
 
...//...For those in this discussion, what is charter boat situation in this regard, and what is your normal method of preventing dangerous divers to be in close proximity to you on a tech dive?

charter boat don't give a damn.

I don't do more than 15 min deco. for lots of reasons. Every diver is potentially dangerous. IDK, dive solo?
 
I get the impression that in the North East wreck dives, the choices of what boat, and how many divers, is not quite as easy to control as it is in South Florida....
For those in this discussion, what is charter boat situation in this regard, and what is your normal method of preventing dangerous divers to be in close proximity to you on a tech dive?
We typically hire the boat out here. Or I bring my own boat. The few tech charters I have been on that were "mixes" of people I knew and didn't know never work out. There's always some "surprise" in the planning or buddies etc that is a disappointment. Sometimes makes a good story, generally makes me feel like I didn't get my money's worth from the paid trip.
 
I would expect this from you. Situation was: donate primary and watch needy diver inflate for the surface...
I guess its true that all the cool kids are diving 7ft primaries. But if aren't willing to actually donate your primary, then dive with a short hose.
 
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