My 10 year old wants to dive.

[Diver0001]

Let me clarify that. I said "regardless of differences in maturity" recognizing that not all 10 year olds are the same.

Maybe I used the wrong word. Maturity isn't really it. It's developmental. It's the ability to form a clear and -- importantly -- accurate assessment of the risks that present themselves during a dive.... situational awareness and proper response to events.

To pick an example, a 10 year old will look to daddy for the answer if the waves are too big or if the dive is safe. A 14 year old will generally have a better lateral/critical thinking ability and put it together without daddy telling them. I know all the parents of 10 year olds out there are going crawl on me and say that their kid is different (better) but I've never met one. My daughter is one of the most assertive and intelligent 10 year old kids (actually she turned 11 last week) I've ever met and I she'll make an excellent diver... but not yet. All those other parents are just wrong, imho.

Proper risk handing is a big thing when it comes to diving. Your ability to properly assess risk just isn't good enough at 10, imo. Not emotional maturity, which is what you probably thought I meant, but just the ability to draw on sufficient experience for meaningful critical thinking in that context. If you wouldn't let your child cycle on busy city streets all by themselves at the age of 10 then they shouldn't be diving either. It's that simple.

Also, 14 year olds are simply stronger and bigger. It's just easier for them.

The last time I trained someone little (he was 11) he bombed out on the first OW day because (a) he couldn't demonstrate the ability to think about what he was doing and his risk awareness was practically zero in my assessment (and he had the attention span of a butterfly) and (b) he couldn't perform the tired diver tow and gave up and fully expected me to say it was good enough because he was little.

I sent him back to the original instructor for remedial work and eventually the guy certified him to dive with daddy, who I had in OW too and, frankly, isn't someone I would want my supervising my newly certified kid until he got more experience handling himself first.

That's just a recipe for disaster but people who train a lot of children let themselves slide down the scale on a shifting baseline of what's acceptable because they think diving with an adult will keep the kids safe. That's not my opinion. I think the child has to have the presence of mind to save themselves because if there's one thing that's sure to eventually happen if you dive enough is getting yourself into some kind of snafu that needs for you to think on your feet, make decisions and act (stop breathe think and do... remember?) And just because someone is little and diving with an adult doesn't mean this won't happen. It just gives me the creeps thinking about it. It's a risk I wouldn't take with my own kid and I certainly wouldn't recommend it for other parents.

After reading that you might think I'm doting but I don't think so. I'm not the most experienced instructor out there but I've been involved in training hundreds and hundreds of divers and I've seen too many things happen to think this is a good idea. Other instructors and other parents are willing to take more risk with their children. Maybe they could live with themselves if something terrible happened. I couldn't. It would kill me.

R..

 

[Crush]

One other thing, the person bashing PADI has 50-99 dives. I wouldn't be bashing agencies without adequate experience to justify the claim.

Two general points:

1. I am not bashing PADI. I am offering advice that I will take when my kids are old enough to dive. My opinion is based upon my personal observation; and
2. Your argument (quoted above) is a logical fallacy (Ad Hominem, to be precise) in which the person is attacked, rather than the argument. I really don't mind - I just through that I'd say that you are wrong in your argumentation (I am not making any comment as to whether or not your argument itself is sound).

 

[boulderjohn]

Two general points:

1. I am not bashing PADI. I am offering advice that I will take when my kids are old enough to dive. My opinion is based upon my personal observation; and
.

Of course you are. And in more than this thread.

As for your personal observation, can you give me a sense of when you observed my classes being taught?

OK, maybe you didn't see mine before you condemned me as an instructor. But to condemn an entire agency, you must certainly have experience based on a wide variety of observations, a healthy percentage of that total population. There are many many thousands of PADI instructors in the U.S. alone. Perhaps you should clarify the percentage you observed and what you saw when you observed them.

 

[Booyakasha]

Diver0001 - explained very well. I think what I was trying to point out is that every child or person needs to be taken as an individual. There are some 11 year olds that may handle things underwater better than a 14 year old. In other words some 14 year olds are not as mature as some 11 year olds. I think in becoming certified the most important thing is maturity. If you go in to free flow at 30 feet or you run out of air or your mask gets pulled off how do you react. Only the instructor can decide this. I think to generalize and say no one under 14 can dive is an overstatment. There are many under 14 who are not ready. There are many over 14 who are not ready. Everybody is different

B.

 

[Crush]

Of course you are. And in more than this thread.

As for your personal observation, can you give me a sense of when you observed my classes being taught?

OK, maybe you didn't see mine before you condemned me as an instructor. But to condemn an entire agency, you must certainly have experience based on a wide variety of observations, a healthy percentage of that total population. There are many many thousands of PADI instructors in the U.S. alone. Perhaps you should clarify the percentage you observed and what you saw when you observed them.

Dear boulderjohn,

I understand that you may feel personally insulted, but the comment was not personal. I would imagine that if I was PADI-trained I might feel the same, but I hope not.

When challenged in this post, I have at times attempted to clarify my position in PMs rather than posting for the entire SB forum if I felt that my response would further fuel the flames. Say what you will, my original post in this thread was sincere, heart-felt advice.

I believe that there are many excellent PADI-trained divers, especially and the instructor (and higher) levels. My original post referred to the comprehensive skills (or lack thereof) that has become de rigueur for basic OW certifications - the OP referred to their young child. The question pertains to the competence of newly-minted basic-OW divers.

boulderjohn, I would like to think that you are a contentious, caring instructor, and that you care for your students. I would like to think that the PADI center at which you are an instructor strives for the highest standards. My questions to you are: Does PADI train to the same level of standards as other agencies (e.g., timed distance swim without snorkel gear, etc.)? If not, are PADI's standards higher or lower? If you truthfully answer these two questions, you will have clarified my argument for me.

 

[Crush]

Of course you are. And in more than this thread.

As for your personal observation, can you give me a sense of when you observed my classes being taught?

OK, maybe you didn't see mine before you condemned me as an instructor. But to condemn an entire agency, you must certainly have experience based on a wide variety of observations, a healthy percentage of that total population. There are many many thousands of PADI instructors in the U.S. alone. Perhaps you should clarify the percentage you observed and what you saw when you observed them.

As an aside, boulderjohn,

My comments were made based upon personal observation, not upon a statistical sampling. You appear to be arguing that, because you believe that I lack statistical proof, I must be incorrect. This logical fallacy is called argumentum ad ignorantiam, or "arguing from ignorance". Thank you for not attacking the person (ad hominen).

 

[Diver0001]

mpetryk and boulderjohn.

Would you mind please taking your discussion offline. It's out of place in a thread about training 10 year olds.

okthanksbye.

R..

 

[Diver0001]

Diver0001 - explained very well. I think what I was trying to point out is that every child or person needs to be taken as an individual. There are some 11 year olds that may handle things underwater better than a 14 year old. In other words some 14 year olds are not as mature as some 11 year olds. I think in becoming certified the most important thing is maturity. If you go in to free flow at 30 feet or you run out of air or your mask gets pulled off how do you react. Only the instructor can decide this. I think to generalize and say no one under 14 can dive is an overstatment. There are many under 14 who are not ready. There are many over 14 who are not ready. Everybody is different

B.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Now I'm sure we're talking about two different things. You're talking about emotional maturity. On that point I agree with you. Some kids I've seen are more "together" than some of the adults I've trained. There can be no doubt about that so what you're saying is definitely true.

What you're saying certainly is important but it's not the whole picture. Having good (well developed) critical thinking skills is also important.

Mabye we're both right

R..

 

[Deep-6]

Thanx to everybody for your input. I think for now Mini Deep-6 will be limited to the pool missions until he's a little older and bigger. That way he can continue to work on snorkeling and swimming skills while still getting aquainted the equipment and the concepts important in diving. I'm still open to any other input.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

A very good and challenging game for the "mini-me" is to practice throwing all the snorkeling equipment to the bottom of the deep end. Then he jumps in, swims down (while clearing his ears), puts on the fins and mask and snorkel, then clears the mask on the bottom AND saves enough air to clear his snorkel when he gets to the top.

These are the kinds of skills my kids totally and completely mastered before I let them begin using a scuba tank in the pool.

Other fun challenges, are weight belt recovery from bottom (soft lead), see how many times he can clear the mask on one breath, practiing reasonable breath hold snorkeling dives in the pool and open water etc..