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I build the plan on a wheel, I use the puter to help if we ever have that "wow, now thats really cool.............OH CRAP!! were 20ft below the floor of our plan!!" situation. Havent had that happen yet, as a matter of fact, I plan for say 100ft, then only hit 95 or so............just because I love my family enough not to kill their dad and mom over something as small as a wrecked ship or whatever.

Of course, the dots are purdy, and I really like the numbers and stuff............the little swimming person is rather sexy.


I spend more time looking at my watch and depth gauge than I do looking at the puter.


Pushing the NDL's (whether or not they "exsist", trust me they do) is like jumpin out of a plane planning to pull the rip cord at 300ft. Maybe youll make it, maybe you wont...........for me, Ill just be safe so we can spend the inheritance for ourselves and that flashy new sports car.

tiny bubbles
 
gkwaldee once bubbled...
I use the puter to help if we ever have that "wow, now thats really cool.............OH CRAP!! were 20ft below the floor of our plan!!" situation.

tiny bubbles
Does your *puter* (whatever that is Seajay has one too) generate the extra gas needed to extend your stay beyond the planned time and depth?

That must really be a cool device... how does it work and where do you get them?

And while I'm asking questions... is your signature line a reference to micro bubbles and/or DCS? :wink:
 
Uncle Pug once bubbled...

Does your *puter* (whatever that is Seajay has one too) generate the extra gas needed to extend your stay beyond the planned time and depth?

<snip>


I don't think he was talking about doing unplanned deco dives. I think he was talking about riding the comptuer within the NDL's and just surfacing when/where-ever the air ends. Bit of a different game. I know you don't like the game but a lot of people do it.

R..
 
Getting this thread back on-track...

Uncle Pug is right... "Every dive is a decompression dive in that you start on-loading inert gas as soon as you descend and start off-loading inert gas when you ascend to a ambient pressure that is less than the pressure of the inert gas in your tissues."
"Up to a point this off-gassing can be tolerated without symptomatic DCS. However the point at which this off-gassing becomes problematic is ill defined and many variables come into play beyond just the inert gas load itself. And many of those variables can be and should be managed before, during and after the dive but that is another topic."

Biscuit7 had some lucid thoughts in response... "...I take issue with the idea that using computers to push NDLs is more unsafe than to tap the limits of your NDL without one. Both methods are stupid."
"A computer is a tool and for a new diver a very valuable one."

MikeS followed up with a very accurate comment... "A computer doesn’t allow you to do anything! It’s just a tool."
"For the most part computers are based on the same algorithms as the tables, which tool you use to push the limits is a moot pint."

Reality is always more complex than we can describe and a dive is full of more variables than we can probably manage to find the magic NDL line. Profiles are never exactly square and every dive is a multi-level dive in actuality. Tables, and computers, are tools to assist us in managing our risk. People get bent on tables and computers. IMHO, because they push the limits either out of knowingly risking the consequence in search of more dive/bottom time, or out of ignorance of where they are. In either case, the tool is not at fault. When you stop to think about it, the argument against computers is a red-hearing for "learn what NDL is about and how you get there - then do all you can to stay safe".
 
Uncle Pug once bubbled...

Does your *puter* (whatever that is Seajay has one too)

<snip>

No, I have a 'puter. I do not have a puter. The difference is the apostrophe. That symbol, in the English language means that something has been left out, or shortened, on purpose. The same rule makes the word's "can't," "don't," and "won't" valid words as well.

Of course, since the English language is a constantly growing language (which would otherwise be dead and uninspired), the creation of new words are not only permittable, but desireable, especially when describing a new device or action. Without this characteristic of modern language, words such as "email" and "netiquette" would never have been created, either.

In fact, for someone to create a word such as "puter" and then use it, without ever having explained it or defined it, (yet still express the meaning of the word wonderfully) borders on brilliance. We all knew exactly what he meant, and we all knew exactly how to pronounce the word. It was brilliantly executed... And we all "got it" when he used it.

The implications of using the word "puter" go even further... By using the word, he implied that he belonged to a cultural group familiar with computers enough to call them "puters." He implied an intimate association between himself and the electronic device. He also implied that he was "hip" enough to use the word, and "modern" enough to use the word correctly. To boot, he managed to shorten a word, thereby creating simultaneously less work in writing it and less work in reading it.

Likely, too, his use of the word "puter" probably means that he has participated in other discussions in the past where a computer was referred to as a 'puter... Which implies that he is educated on the discussions about 'puters as well.

In one word, he managed to imply education, hipness, familiararity, and social association. Not many other words could have implied so much with so little said.

Brilliant, I say.


That must really be a cool device... how does it work and where do you get them?

I am sooo tempted, at this point, to use a little Adobe magic to create a sort of Spare Air/Puter thingie ("thingie" is not really a word, either) and post it, just to joke around with you.

Fact is, most divers do not plan their dives the way they are "supposed" to... I think you would agree with me on that factoid (another "new" word). I would argue, too, that there are more people who "dive their computer" than who "dive their plan."

That said, how then can the statistically low occurrence of DCS or OOA emergencies be explained?

My point is that while there is no device that's going to suddenly give you more air/gas than before (as you jokingly described), the implication that this statistically increases the chance of an OOA is unsupported. Common sense tells us that not diving the plan increases risk... But even with all of the *horrible* things going on out there, diving is still a very safe activity.

I'm not saying that we should all forget the plan... Or dive deco without knowing what's going on. I don't feel that way at all... All I'm saying is that these sort of comments can give a reader the impression that if you don't dive a certain way, you're going to die... And that's just not statistically supported.

I liken it to wearing your seat belt... Of course it's safer to wear it than not wear it... And everyone should. But I truly believe that there are more problems caused by safety zealots and "save the children" yellers (another made-up word) regarding safety belt laws than by the non-belt-wearing (another) public.

If the general idea of scuba diving is FUN (and let's face it... Isn't that the point?) then anything NOT FUN is detracting from it. While death certainly would be the most NOT FUN activity that I can think of, there is also a lot of NOT FUN going on when people preach or impose their ideas of "safety" on others.

...For that matter, I likewise consider the word "puter" FUN... And applaud the use of it.

Of course, you're entitled to your own opinion.


And while I'm asking questions... is your signature line a reference to micro bubbles and/or DCS? :wink:

I know you were kidding, UP, but I don't think that gkwaldee had much FUN with your comment.
 
Seajay I think you missed the obvious link the use of the *word* puter (or 'puter) made between his post and your Big Mistake thread where you altered your plan in a manner similar to the one he describes and came up on the wrong side of the NDL but with less gas than you would have liked.

What we need to keep in focus is that neither computers nor tables generate extra gas. Gas management is the key. To me, the amount of gas I have is more important that the amount of NDL time I have.

Actually the use of the word puter ('puter) is very telling... but that wasn't my point... it was merely a cue.
 
the tiny bubbles comment... just kidding gkwaldee... I know from your post in another thread that you "PLAN YOUR DIVE, DIVE YOUR PLAN." and that you have "Never been bent..."

But that does bring into focus another important point:

Micro Bubbles.

as I said in a previous post
"Up to a point this off-gassing can be tolerated without symptomatic DCS. However the point at which this off-gassing becomes problematic is ill defined and many variables come into play beyond just the inert gas load itself. And many of those variables can be and should be managed before, during and after the dive...

Managing micro bubbles is one of those variables that comes into play. Strenuous activity before, during and after the dive can bring about more damage that stepping over the NDL in my experience.
 
Uncle Pug once bubbled...
Strenuous activity before ... the dive can bring about more damage that stepping over the NDL in my experience.

*Before* the dive? I've never heard that before. Where did you?
 
SeaJay once bubbled...


In fact, for someone to create a word such as "puter" and then use it, without ever having explained it or defined it, (yet still express the meaning of the word wonderfully) borders on brilliance. We all knew exactly what he meant, and we all knew exactly how to pronounce the word. It was brilliantly executed... And we all "got it" when he used it.

There is already a word pronounced " 'puter " that is correctly spelled "pewter" and is used in obscene amounts by the Franklin Mint to create "collectibles". So I wouldn't characterize the linguistic liberties above as borderline brilliance so much as mis-use.


However, back to the topic at hand, I think jhelmuth did a fine job of plucking nuggets of wisdom from past posts. What this thread has done for me is clearly illustrated that a significant percentage of computer users know how to read their computer's display, but lack a general understanding of what's happening with the Nitrogen in their system during ascent and decompression.

To illustrate my point, How many people do you know that diligently do their "safety stop" at exactly 15' and as soon as it's done, inflate their BCs and pop to the surface like a cork?
 
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