Need some advise on a product I purchased recently and corrosion

[TT_Vert]

Basically I purchased a pair of shears, did one dive and after the dive promptly rinsed the shears. The next day the shears were completely covered in rust and within a week it was more than surface rust. The shears were advertised as being coated to prevent corrosion on stainless when subjected to salt water. I contacted the vendor who stated the problem was w/ the coating process on the batch and promptly sent me another pair free of charge. I took these diving and the exact same thing happened after one day of diving after a rinse and sitting a day. With this rust it is very difficult to open and close these like they were prior to hitting the water. Upon contacting the vendor they have agreed to refund me the price of the shears but refused to refund the shipping I paid originally or the shipping to send this pair back. I guess my question is, am I expecting too much not to pay shipping for a part that doesn't function as advertised and is this corrosion perhaps normal? None of my other cutting devices have even a hint of rust and they are also stainless and treated to the same washing after dives these shears were. I have enclosed a picture of the shears after one dive for your opinions.

Thanks
Dave

 

[buddhasummer]

I wouldn't be happy paying shipping. I use trauma shears and if not rinsed they will start to rust, usually around the pivot pin, but no where near at the rate you have experienced. The pair I currently have are 5 years old. They must be a very low grade stainless steel.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Common problem in salt water.

Perhaps this will start some kind of huge debate on the topic (and Lord knows I'll find some metallurgist or chemical engineer to argue with), but what the heck...

My personal experience is that in salt water, finding a blade that doesn't corrode is a significant issue:

420 (common) stainless steel is junk and rusts in the presence of salt water, even after rinsing. It holds a great edge, though, if not exposed to salt water. As such, it's very popular to make knives - even dive knives - out of the stuff. It makes an edge well, keeps an edge, and looks like a great knife. Unfortunately, it oxidizes readily. I suspect that your shears are made of 420 stainless steel.

304/316 stainless has much better corrosion resistance. The two differ slightly in alloy makeup, but they're both excellent in the corrosion resistance area. Unfortunately, they don't hold an edge well at all. They're difficult to sharpen, and once they're sharp, they go dull very quickly. 304/316 stainless, therefore, makes for great hardware on boats, backplates, D-rings and the like... But not very good knives or shears.

Titanium, IMHO, does an enviable job balancing the two... It does not corrode easily, and it does hold an edge well. The cost, however, is often prohibitive, and titanium is very light weight and dull-looking... Often lacking a good "feel" or appearance to the diver.

Ceramic cutting tools are a very interesting relative newcomer to the marketplace. Obviously, they will not corrode at all, and they take an edge very well and stay sharp for a very long time. People brag how they can abuse these knives and have them stay sharp. Unfortunately, ceramic knives are comparably brittle, and can break and chip. Chefs who use ceramic knives often take great care with them to ensure that they do not crack or chip them.

Spyderco has recently decided to use a new alloy in their "saltwater" series of dive knives that claim to be both corrosion resistant and able to hold an edge. I have no personal experience with them.

For my disentanglements, I am using an all-aluminum "lockblade" style boxcutter style knife with a titanium-coated 420 stainless steel "hook" blade. The tool sits in my tool basket that I dive with and when I need it, I pull it out and unfold the blade and use it. When the blade begins to show rusting (usually within days of use), I change it out for a fresh blade, which is inexpensive... And I've always got a rediculously sharp "hook" blade for cutting.

On my dive rig I carry a 304 stainless steel Scubapro K3 knife with a much less sharp blade, to use in case of emergency, and to pry and poke with. It's constantly in need of sharpening, which I have done many times. I look forward to replacing this with a Scubapro K3 in titanium, which should provide the same corrosion resistance with a better ability to hold an edge... But look less cool. I hate the lightweight feel in a knife, too, which is what this will have. Ah... You can't have it all. Blunt tips, FWIW, for prying.

These shears? Be happy that they're giving you a refund. They're junk.

I don't know if they make them or not, but if you really want the problem solved, see if you can find them in titanium. If not, 304 or 316 stainless ones should do the trick, but don't expect them to stay very sharp. May not be an issue, though, with shears, since you've got leverage that you don't have in a knife.

Alternatively, you can get another set of cheap 420 stainless shears and WD-40 them every few dives - in addition to rinsing them.

I've heard good things about a product called OSPHO by Skyco (Amazon.com: Skyco Ospho Metal Primer Qt: Sports & Outdoors) and I even purchased a bottle of it. Supposedly, it uses phosphoric acid to etch metal, which somehow prevents rust. I haven't personally tried it, but I intend to. Anything that can help... Maybe 420 stainless dipped in this might be the way to go? Maybe that's what Spyderco is doing with their "saltwater" series?

 

[watboy]

I have a spyderco "H1 Stainless" steel dive knife which I do not baby at all and has not rusted and has kept a sharp edge. The only place it has shown rust is around the logo engravings, which I understand is bits of the tooling rusting and no the steel blade. 200 dives with this knife and I frequently forget to rinse it and its still sharp.

 

[buddhasummer]

Common problem in salt water.

Perhaps this will start some kind of huge debate on the topic (and Lord knows I'll find some metallurgist or chemical engineer to argue with), but what the heck...

My personal experience is that in salt water, finding a blade that doesn't corrode is a significant issue:

420 (common) stainless steel is junk and rusts in the presence of salt water, even after rinsing. It holds a great edge, though, if not exposed to salt water. As such, it's very popular to make knives - even dive knives - out of the stuff. It makes an edge well, keeps an edge, and looks like a great knife. Unfortunately, it oxidizes readily. I suspect that your shears are made of 420 stainless steel.

304/316 stainless has much better corrosion resistance. The two differ slightly in alloy makeup, but they're both excellent in the corrosion resistance area. Unfortunately, they don't hold an edge well at all. They're difficult to sharpen, and once they're sharp, they go dull very quickly. 304/316 stainless, therefore, makes for great hardware on boats, backplates, D-rings and the like... But not very good knives or shears.

Titanium, IMHO, does an enviable job balancing the two... It does not corrode easily, and it does hold an edge well. The cost, however, is often prohibitive, and titanium is very light weight and dull-looking... Often lacking a good "feel" or appearance to the diver.

Ceramic cutting tools are a very interesting relative newcomer to the marketplace. Obviously, they will not corrode at all, and they take an edge very well and stay sharp for a very long time. People brag how they can abuse these knives and have them stay sharp. Unfortunately, ceramic knives are comparably brittle, and can break and chip. Chefs who use ceramic knives often take great care with them to ensure that they do not crack or chip them.

Spyderco has recently decided to use a new alloy in their "saltwater" series of dive knives that claim to be both corrosion resistant and able to hold an edge. I have no personal experience with them.

For my disentanglements, I am using an all-aluminum "lockblade" style boxcutter style knife with a titanium-coated 420 stainless steel "hook" blade. The tool sits in my tool basket that I dive with and when I need it, I pull it out and unfold the blade and use it. When the blade begins to show rusting (usually within days of use), I change it out for a fresh blade, which is inexpensive... And I've always got a rediculously sharp "hook" blade for cutting.

On my dive rig I carry a 304 stainless steel Scubapro K3 knife with a much less sharp blade, to use in case of emergency, and to pry and poke with. It's constantly in need of sharpening, which I have done many times. I look forward to replacing this with a Scubapro K3 in titanium, which should provide the same corrosion resistance with a better ability to hold an edge... But look less cool. I hate the lightweight feel in a knife, too, which is what this will have. Ah... You can't have it all. Blunt tips, FWIW, for prying.

These shears? Be happy that they're giving you a refund. They're junk.

I don't know if they make them or not, but if you really want the problem solved, see if you can find them in titanium. If not, 304 or 316 stainless ones should do the trick, but don't expect them to stay very sharp. May not be an issue, though, with shears, since you've got leverage that you don't have in a knife.

Alternatively, you can get another set of cheap 420 stainless shears and WD-40 them every few dives - in addition to rinsing them.

I've heard good things about a product called OSPHO by Skyco (Amazon.com: Skyco Ospho Metal Primer Qt: Sports & Outdoors) and I even purchased a bottle of it. Supposedly, it uses phosphoric acid to etch metal, which somehow prevents rust. I haven't personally tried it, but I intend to. Anything that can help... Maybe 420 stainless dipped in this might be the way to go? Maybe that's what Spyderco is doing with their "saltwater" series?

DiveGearExpress sell titanium nitride coated shears.

Cutting Tools and Jon Line - Dive Gear Express

The trauma shears I use are around $19 so replacing them won't hurt. I use a Wenoka titanium compact squeeze on my harness and it looks as new as when I bought it, not as sharp as my SS version though.

 

[TT_Vert]

Thanks guys. I spoke with the vendor today and he wants me to send them to him at my expense and after the manufacture figures it out he'll credit me. I don't totally agree with this method but it's a step in the correct direction. I may be better off just using a scotch brite on them after ever dive and coating them in some type of silicone.

Dave

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Ideally the vendor should back up the advertisement 100%, including shipping. We know stainless steel rust, just normally slower than mild steel. In this case there was a specific advertisement claim made by the manufacturer and the the gear failed to meet after the initial use.

The vendor is hedging a bit. The manufacturer will probably refund him his cost for the shears, not the lost profit nor the shipping. By passing the shipping on to the customer, they hope to place a mild incentive to prevent replacements/returns for trivial reasons (not saying yours is, but some people do at times) and reduce their loss. Its not the sign of an outstanding vendor, but often the case.

I would not continue to use those shears. Right now they function, but left ignored in a sheath they will get worse. The nature of the product is after the initial trial period with the new toy, they sit in the sheath ignored, until you really need them months/years down the road. Then they better work. I buy really cheap medical shears for $8, made of stainless and coat them on occasion with spray corrosion inhibitor. I get small amounts of flash rust only until I ignore them too long. Every few years, l lose them or they get bad enough to replace.

 

[grantwiscour]

I wouldn't like the idea of paying for the shipping. With that said, I probably would ship them back at my expense to be done with them. It doesn't appear that the shears are of very good quality and the vendor/mfr both seem hesitant to make things totally "square" with you.

 

[LMichWreckDiver]

I wouldn't worry about sending it back. Doesn't seem like its worth the time and effort. To bad you don't live close enough to a LDS to avoid shipping cost.

 

[Kilili]

I've had similar problems with a pair somewhat like this. If you want to keep using, you can use rust treatment, or clean up with steel wool. If you can disassemble, do so. When done, coat with thin layer of grease. I use marine wheel bearing grease, simply because I happen to have it handy. Use on knife blades too. Works well.

Have had similar problems with surgical shears. Of course, shears can be found at a very cheap price. So, you can throw away and just replace if necessary. Titanium coated shears hold up much better, but they're not bulletproof. However, I must admit that I don't clean them after every dive, just a gear dip with them, along with everything else.

As for the postage issue, if they were advertised for scuba, as these appear to be, I would resist paying, and be inclined to be somewhat vocal with internet feedback regarding the company. As I see it, the seller has already stated that the first pair were defective, and is not balking because he sent another defective pair. If there's one, there could be more. Not your problem. Too bad they're a dive operation and not a retailer. Not as easy to make your complaint visible.

If you find a good pair in the future, let me know. I never have.