New divers and "trust me" dives

[TSandM]

Thank you for your answers, and thank you for pointing out that I need to push to TRY and do more for myself, rather than just following. It's an easy habit to get into when all you have done is dive under instruction.

 

[Mantasscareme]

One more thing. This is kind of off topic, but it's a suggestion from one newbie diver to another. If you ever do a boat dive without your experienced friends, I recommend hiring your own Divemaster for the day. Most of the shops let you do that for about $70 extra per day of diving. I know it's expensive, but trust me, it's worth it. Not only would having your own DM for the day provide an added degree of safety by recognizing your limitations and helping you structure the dive accordingly (as I'm sure your more experienced friends do), they would also make the dive easier by helping with gear and make the dive more interesting by helping point out marine life that you would have otherwise missed. While these things aren't really neccessary when diving in warm water where the DMs dive alongside the divers, the regular divemasters on most cold water trips stay on deck and count on the divers to know what they're doing. The one boat trip I did in cold water conditions (San Diego), I hired my own DM and I have to say having a real pro in the water with you was a good learning experience and was reassuring on a dive that I wasn't very confident on. Plus I'm sure an experienced DM would be happy to share tips and wisdom gained by years of diving. Well, just a thought.

 

[scubafool]

I read through this thread earlier this evening, and have thought about it more since.

First, I would define a trust-me dive as a dive which, if a little Martian dude were to float past & "vaporize" your buddy at the deepest/farthest/most dangerous part of the dive, you wouldn't have the skills, comfort level, site knowledge, equipment, or whatever else might be necessary, to safely end the dive on your own, and instead, are dependant on your dive buddy if something were to go wrong.

For example, if a diver doesn't have a decent handle on navigational skills, they really shouldn't do dives under shipping lanes that requires your buddy's superior navigational skills to get out of. If a diver doesn't have decent bouyancy control, they shouldn't do a dive to a depth or time that would have even a recommended safety stop.

So, even if you are diving with buddies that are more skilled than you, if you have thought through the dive, and KNOW that you could make it back on your own without the more skilled buddy, it is not a trust me dive, even if you are pushing your diving.

JMHO,

David

 

[String]

The only way to increase your experience is to dive with people of greater experience and learn from that. I dont see any problem in allowing someone else to plan this and so on *provided* you fully understand after theyve done it their reasons for doing everything and how they opted for the plan they did.

Its the best and potentially the only way to learn and get experience.

This is different from a "trust me" where you blindly follow someone on a dive without asking or checking just assuming they know what theyre doing.

 

[jcm996]

To me a "trust me" dive would be not knowing anything about the dive. Depth planned or anything.

When I dive there are certain divers I follow beacuse they know the wreck better than me and are more experienced. But I still know the aspects of the dive and still would be able to get myself and my buddy out of the area as safe as possible.

There are other divers I dive with were I must plan the dive and they follow me. But I still make sure they know the plan.

So what you are explaining to me is not a trust me dive, unless you know nothing and are letting them set up your equiptment and just jumping in and following. What you are doing is getting experience.

I will admit there are dives where I know my buddy and 2-4 other divers were watching me because it was my first time on a certain wreck at a depth I have never been to before. And other time the same 6 of use are "alone" but can "see" another diver on a shallower wreck. (Please note we all dive with pony's so and the wrecks are only 80-200 feet in 70 or less)

On the same token, I have a freind who has less than 10 dives in. I will take the time to do a shallow shore dive with him where he sucks a 80CF in 30min and I have 1000PSI left in my steel 72 starting with only 2000 PSI. But I will not take him out to a site I know he is not ready for. And I plan the whole dive for him and let him know what we are doing. When he gets to his 20th dive. I plan to take him to a familiar place and then tell him he is in charge. I'm following him, if he doesn't ask to do this before then.

So I would suggest you get comfortable with a site or two, and then ask your group if you can plan the dive. Then after you plan it ask if you missed anything. Then dive it as the leader and then get a follow up on how you did. This way if something does go wrong or you mess up with the compass. Someone will be able to take over, but you will have learned what to do.

 

[m3830431]

I think that since you are new to the area not just diving it is advisable to have someone that was there before to lead the dive. You could drag the flag.

Once you become familiar with the sites you might want offer to lead.

If you know the dive in front well enough "trust me"

 

[ScubaSixString]

I have been exploring this site, and have come across multiple mentions of "trust me" dives. It seems to be a pejorative comment.

I am an AOW cert with 11 dives to date. I am acutely aware of my shortcomings. I dive in cold water and poor vis (Puget Sound), and at this point, I don't feel as though I can reliably manage dive planning, gas usage planning, and navigation by myself. Therefore, I have arranged to dive with much more experienced people, and have made it clear that I am a novice and need a lot of support. But I count on my buddy to know the site, to an extent to evaluate the conditions, and to do the navigation. I can manage my buoyancy and monitor my air according to pre-agreed parameters.

Is this a bad idea? In no way have I entirely abdicated responsibility, in that I am selecting buddies who are DMs or AIs or the equivalent, I listen to the dive plan and make sure it makes sense, agree on signals and limiting parameters. But if I had to be responsible for planning and navigation as well as everything else, I'd probably not dive.

What is one to do in such a situation, other than "trust me" dives?

What you are doing isn't the typical "trust me" dive, as i understand it. A true "trust me" dive is one where I say to you, we're going down to 150 feet, hang out down there for 60 minutes, then meander our way back up here." "But," you say, "i'm REALLY uncomfortable with that". "Trust me"... and off we go.

You have put your entire safety, in my hands, taking no responsibility of your own.

What you are doing is picking experienced buddies to help you deal with an environment you aren't completely comfortable in, BUT maintaining the ability to say "wait....this doesn't work for me and this is why"

 

[Xanthro]

I am an AOW cert with 11 dives to date. I am acutely aware of my shortcomings. I dive in cold water and poor vis (Puget Sound), and at this point, I don't feel as though I can reliably manage dive planning, gas usage planning, and navigation by myself.

Really, you need to know how to plan your dive and calculate your gas before you finish OW. Navigation is a required skill in AOW.

You should be comfortable with these skills. Also, being AOW certified with only 11 dives is not the best. It's rare that someone can obtain the level of skill needed in so few dives to benefit from AOW.

Therefore, I have arranged to dive with much more experienced people, and have made it clear that I am a novice and need a lot of support.

If you need support, you are not at the proper skill level. Diving with more experienced people is a great learning tool, but you should still be able to do that dive on your own with a imaginary buddy at your skill level. If you are doing a dive with someone and relying on them to make sure you are okay, that's a trust me dive and is dangerous.

But I count on my buddy to know the site, to an extent to evaluate the conditions, and to do the navigation. I can manage my buoyancy and monitor my air according to pre-agreed parameters.

You need to do navigation as well and evaulate conditions. Having someone know a cite better than you is expected.

Is this a bad idea? In no way have I entirely abdicated responsibility, in that I am selecting buddies who are DMs or AIs or the equivalent, I listen to the dive plan and make sure it makes sense, agree on signals and limiting parameters. But if I had to be responsible for planning and navigation as well as everything else, I'd probably not dive.

This means you are not really ready to do the dives your are doing. There is nothing wrong with this. It appears you were pushed into AOW before you were ready. It's a training issue, and not a personal one. You can only learn with practice, but that practice does not have to be dives you are uncomfortable with.

What is one to do in such a situation, other than "trust me" dives?

Practice on dives you are comfortable planning and navigating. If you can't navigate, practice that as well.

11 dives is not very many, and most of those have been training dives. Don't allow yourself to feel rushed to do more difficult dives. Become comfortable in your skills doing easy dives, and gradually move to deeper or more difficult dives.

Plenty of more experienced divers are willing to dive easier dives. I enjoy them as much as more difficult dives. Dive within your own comfort level, watch the more experienced divers and how they move. Ask for tips, but never dive beyond your own personal comfort level.

It always shocks me to hear people on a boat say, "Normally, I wouldn't go that deep" and 4 or more people are saying this. These people need to buddy up and dive easier dives.

 

[TheRedHead]

I have been exploring this site, and have come across multiple mentions of "trust me" dives. It seems to be a pejorative comment.

I am an AOW cert with 11 dives to date. I am acutely aware of my shortcomings. I dive in cold water and poor vis (Puget Sound), and at this point, I don't feel as though I can reliably manage dive planning, gas usage planning, and navigation by myself. Therefore, I have arranged to dive with much more experienced people, and have made it clear that I am a novice and need a lot of support. But I count on my buddy to know the site, to an extent to evaluate the conditions, and to do the navigation. I can manage my buoyancy and monitor my air according to pre-agreed parameters.

You're not doing trust me dives; you're doing "teach me" dives. A "trust me" dive is when you go off to Cozumel with 11 dives and trust the DM that he can lead you through Devil's Throat and you will surface unharmed. A lot of "trust me" dives are done under the supervision of a DM in an exotic locale.

You're also WAY too hard on yourself. Here you are with 11 dives and diving in an extremely challenging environment with a drysuit no less! You don't learn navigation in AOW. You learn how to navigate a square, more or less. You need to dive the same spot many times, using both compass and natural navagation, in order to really form a mental picture of the site. The most important thing to remember in your learning dives is to try and keep track of how to get back to your entry point by making a mental note of reciprocal headings or directions.

Your dive training journal was an absolute hoot and you did quite well under the circumstances. Give yourself some time and try to dive in warm clear water for a change. It's so much easier to achieve good buoyancy and nail navigation when you are floating effortlessly in 82 degree water and can see 100 feet plus feet.

Stop worrying and take a vacation and dive, dive, dive.

 

[TSandM]

Well, Thursday I am off to Maui to do some of that clear, warm water diving . . . and it will be "trust me" dives in exotic locales, since I don't know the area at all!

Xanthro, I'm a little puzzled by the level of criticism. The dives I am doing with people other than instructors are very simple dives to very conservative depths (eg. 40 fsw). I don't know how we could do easier ones. And with each trip under, I'm getting a little more comfortable and able to manage more things for myself. But I definitely did not come out of OW cert with those skills, and I really don't see how anybody could -- read my dive journal!