New level of insta-buddy trouble

[clampinator]

Sounds Like a bunch of lawyers arguing a case to me Im out

 

[Web Monkey]

I'm not sure who warned them about it being "too hot", but coffee is brewed at just below boiling (204 degrees F).

It's not possible for coffee to be "unreasonably hot" unless it's actually boiling, and in that case it's only 8 degrees hotter than it "should" be.

I still think the lawsuit was a crock, and no damages should have been awarded.

Terry

The coffee was not just hot--it was really hot--hot beyond industry standards. It caused physical harm that would not have occurred had the temperature been where it should have been.

1. At some time in the past--and I believe more than once--inspectors had notified them that their coffee was dangerously hot, and they had been ordered to remedy the situation.
2. They had made no effort to implement the required remedy.

 

[DivePartner1]

And they call liberals whiny.

Look people, out of all the millions of dives conducted in the USA, we have exactly one apellate court case addressing buddy responsibility. . . .

Surely, you are not suggesting that an appellate survey is an accurate predictor of liability? For example, if one could only find malpractice decisions against patent lawyers in only three states, that would hardly mean they'd never be sued in other states.

Aside from the fact that few trials are appealed and considering that most negligence trials are in state courts, wouldn't a survey of state trial courts be a better indicator? I'd like to see the state courts or, better yet, the insurance claims data on all paid claims, not just those that are litigated.

Any deep pocket can and usually is sued if something goes wrong but that is true of anything -- even the high risk process of driving to the dive site.

The reality is that a risk exists, particularly to divers with resources. Risk is part of life. Most of us are less at risk of suits at play than we are at the work that we do. I'd accept the risk profile I have as a diver over a professional any day.

More to the point, a safe buddy team is a powerful risk management tool and is our best bet for safety. Even on pick-up dives with a stranger, friendly but focused chat about experience before a dive can help determine whether or not to go with a stranger.

 

[lowwall]

Ah, the McDonalds coffee case. Once again, there's a reason she was awarded damages.

McDonalds kept the coffee at 180-190 degrees, a temperature that will cause 3rd degree burns in 2 to 7 seconds. Home brewed coffee (and most restaurant coffee) typically comes out at about 135-140 degrees and will not cause 3rd degree burns if you spill it on yourself.

The 79 year old woman, Stella Liebeck (who was being driven by her grandson), tried to take the lid off the coffee to add cream and sugar and ended up spilling the whole cup on her lap.

"The sweatpants Liebeck was wearing absorbed the coffee and held it next
to her skin. A vascular surgeon determined that Liebeck suffered full
thickness burns (or third-degree burns) over 6 percent of her body,
including her inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, and genital and groin
areas."

She was hospitalized for eight days, during which time she underwent debridement and skin grafting. The burns left her scarred and disabled for more than two years."

At the trial, a McDonalds quality assurance manager testified that at the pour temperature, the coffee was unfit for human consumption as it would burn the mouth and throat. It also came out that McDonalds had received over 700 complaints about serious burns from its coffee during the previous decade.

This pretty much clinched it for the jury who awarded Liebeck 160k for compensatory damages (200k reduced by 20% for her contributory negligence) and $2.7 million in punitive damages in an attempt to force McDonalds to change its procedures. The judge lowered the punitive damages to $480k.

Would you take 640k in exchange for having those injuries and treatments inflicted upon you?

 

[RockPile]

I remember making fun of the hot coffee woman in high school. When I was older I actually read the case. What was reported in the papers was vastly different than what happened. I still don't like to think about the details of that case.

That old lady was badly mutilated. But that's neither here nor there... I take it everyone is winded on issues of liability?

JB

 

[Cacia]

sorry, I got so agitated. I have had my medication now....It was a real eye opener to me to hear the number of responsible people that advocate more legal action. I say this, in all honesty. I think it is unfortunate because I expect the caliber of willing dive guides to drop. I had already decided not to renew insurance, PADI, the whole deal. What does it offer me? There just comes a point where you are not doing yourself any favors by getting involved in this whole mentality. I plan to be clear that I am a solo diver willing to dive with other solo divers only. And we can even reserve the right to make the pony call ourselves! The whole buddy situation is an overall loss to me. Another fellow solo diver is a different story. We can agree to be helpful to each other and enjoy each others company, with the understanding that we keep our hands off each other's asset's. I predict this will be the trend of the future. it is already happening in the health insurance arena. Health Savings Accounts...here they come. People have basically had it with sharing everyone's risk pool.

 

[sea nmf]

FWIW, I've told my family that if I die in a dive accident, it is my fault. Again, as a newbie, I didn't know what I didn't know. I've done risky dives that I shouldn't have done.

Anyway, as a buddy, especially with someone I don't know, I'll be very attentive and monitor (to some extent) their gauges and assist them if they need help. I think most of us would. If we are doing that, then we don't have to be concerned about being judged negligent.

However, even after talking with a new buddy before the dive, if they disregard the plan after their fins hit the water, I simply won't dive with them again. Not because I don't want to assist them, but because I don't enjoy the dive because I'm CONSTANTLY monitoring them.

For a regular buddy, I do take less of an active role. I know they monitor their gauges. We know each other's approx bottom time. We stay in contact. We are there to help if needed. But it isn't so much of a babysitting job.

 

[LSDeep]

ok, first time i came across that thread and i am sorry if i repeat some of the above said - i simply didnt have the nerve to read to that many pages.
the thought alone, that youre responsible for your assigned buddy is scary. there where also cases where diveprofessionals (dm / ai / instr) got sued based on the fact (being themselfs guests / paying clients on the boat) that they are dive professionals or even the highest level certified person onboard! now, beside professional courtesy and higher matters - thats b*llsh*it! how can i be responsible for a companies doing i am in no way affiliated to? i guess, thats the reason for many pro's to dive on the lowest cert the have to make the dive possible during their vacation. beside the fact that many dc's have a tendency to give you worse buddies the more experienced you are. generally my preferred stores, when on holidays, are the ones that recognize my solodiver card. gimme the extra tank (other things i have myself) and keep me out of the loop. i pay for extra tank - i am not responsible for your problems to be happen. it sounds bad maybe - but nobody gives me a discount to "babysit" there less than perfect divers. i will get involved if i see serious probs happen during briefing, setup etc. beside that i am a client and not extended paying workforce, as so often practiced.

 

[Web Monkey]

DON'T ANY OF YOU GUYS WORK? Where do you have the time to monitor this thread?

I watch the board during compiles and database updates.

It's much nicer than watching the little blue progress bar creep across the screen all day.

Terry

 

[ItsBruce]

Hay folk: This thread has strayed from the original topic. I started this thread simply to alert people of a potential risk that they may not have considered while diving. It is no different from any of many risks we must take into account when diving. Let's leave it at that.

BTW: I'm still planning on getting my DM cert even though I don't expect to ever lead dives. If I want to dive and don't bring a buddy, I'll consider one that the dive operator offers me (just as I would consider a loaner mask if I forgot mine). I will just recognize the risk that comes from having a judge comment about buddies and manage that risk.