New UTD rig, thoughts?

[rjack321]

Thanks Jeff but there's way more to a scalable foundation than a long hose, standard gases and ratio deco. Intuitively knowing the consequences of fixable and non-fixable leaks and failures at depth in overheads for instance.

The community in this area is using the tools and techniques of the recreational realm at the ~Essentials level to prepare for more advanced diving with far greater task loading and the need for consistent muscle and team memory across configurations is obvious and great.

I hope nobody shows up for an Essentials class in a delta because the muscle memory for using it is completely different than an OC doubles rig they may end up needing for Rec3 or Tech1 six or eight months later. I'd prefer them in a conventional wing which scales up to meet whatever their interests become. Will it dive perfectly for a complete neophyte right out of the box? Probably not, but the skills are not that difficult and have proven to be valuable for myself and many others.

The delta does look like a fun toy, in the realm of monkey diving.

 

[nadwidny]

Re: the KISS - the pictures you saw from our factory training that day were of me diving the MX-KISS and Andrew diving the stock Classic, so we had an opportunity to see it perform in both configurations. Remember, the MX is a configuration of existing rebreathers - so far the Meg, the Hammerhead, and the KISS. Although they differ in construction and plumbing, they are all configured identically from an operator's standpoint and integrate seamlessly into a mixed team of CCR and back mount or Z-System side mount OC - same long hose, same standard gases, same deco profiles.

Not quite so seamlessly. With those units UTD is trying to shoehorn OC into CC and frankly some of the procedures make those of us that were DIR divers and are now CC divers shake our heads (the "going off the loop to donate the long hose" for one). It's not just the RBW crowd that are questioning UTD's approach to "DIR rebreathers.

All of these systems are designed and thought out to work with each other while staying true to how we dive and how we teach.

Then address the concern that a few people have brought up that the delta wing is a compression wing .

 

[ae3753]

I'd start by asking that my teammates at least have similar gear...

I'm not really interested in learning five(+) different configurations, all requiring different responses in rescue scenarios. Once you throw out gear standardization (at least within the team), probably best not to refer to what you have as DIR.

Procedures remain the same, albeit with different gear. Even in the most simplistic case of single tank and double tanks divers. Same procedure, but different configurations.

The MX procedures are similar enough that it can be incorporated in team diving. However, if it's not similar enough for a specific team, then it's not. The team is first.

 

[ae3753]

Thanks Jeff but there's way more to a scalable foundation than a long hose, standard gases and ratio deco. Intuitively knowing the consequences of fixable and non-fixable leaks and failures at depth in overheads for instance.

Knowledge of failures and handling of failure still remain the same for the OC systems. pSCR and MX have added complexity, but are still built on top of OC units. Remove the rebreather, and you're back to a set of doubles.

The community in this area is using the tools and techniques of the recreational realm at the ~Essentials level to prepare for more advanced diving with far greater task loading and the need for consistent muscle and team memory across configurations is obvious and great.

I hope nobody shows up for an Essentials class in a delta because the muscle memory for using it is completely different than an OC doubles rig they may end up needing for Rec3 or Tech1 six or eight months later. I'd prefer them in a conventional wing which scales up to meet whatever their interests become. Will it dive perfectly for a complete neophyte right out of the box? Probably not, but the skills are not that difficult and have proven to be valuable for myself and many others.

The delta wing has a butt dump on the right instead of left. And an inflator wing that doesn't require you to lift your arm to dump. Personally, I don't see the muscle memory issue, even if students later transition to a traditional wing.

The delta does look like a fun toy, in the realm of monkey diving.

Definitely many possibilities for the Delta. Could be only appropriate for single tank recreational diving. Could be that it becomes a new standard for single or double tank diving. Could be relegated a novel idea, but one that ultimately doesn't work at all. For every success, there are 10+ flops. Of course, UTD's flops are going to be very public. But should they stopped pushing?

UTD pushed training, being the first to offer quality instructional videos, modular classes, and minis. I think that everyone agrees that this has been to the benefit of the larger DIR community. Why wouldn't pushing what we consider DIR equipment do the same?

 

[kanonfodr]

Definitely many possibilities for the Delta. Could be only appropriate for single tank recreational diving. Could be that it becomes a new standard for single or double tank diving. Could be relegated a novel idea, but one that ultimately doesn't work at all. For every success, there are 10+ flops. Of course, UTD's flops are going to be very public. But should they stopped pushing?

UTD pushed training, being the first to offer quality instructional videos, modular classes, and minis. I think that everyone agrees that this has been to the benefit of the larger DIR community. Why wouldn't pushing what we consider DIR equipment do the same?

I don't think that anyone will doubt UTD's contributions to distance learning through their online classes and DVDs (both of which I have used and enjoyed for their usefulness), and I thought classes like the Stage Mini were very novel ideas. I've even drooled over some of the gear (the LED Canister light REALLY appealed to me) but I think that some concepts you guys are exploring will never be considered what has traditionally been held as "DIR."

Case in point: Sidemount diving. There is no major piece of equipment that translates from backmount to sidemount diving: they are totally different concepts. There are some kludges that allow sidemount in a "DIR" equipment configuration but IMO it's better to get a proper sidemount setup (Steve B's Razor harness, the Nomad, Armadillo etc) and get training from an active sidemount instructor.

While I don't really consider "DIR" to be an equipment-centered diving philosophy, the gear is just as important as the Team Concept and the world-class training inherent in the system. But the equipment is still pretty important as it allows full interchangeability between divers with as little learning curve as possible.

Case in point: a visiting SBer came down to Oahu recently and wanted to go diving. We were originally planning on diving doubles from a charter boat but conditions that whole week had been really bad and we didn't know if the boat would go out. We changed plans at the last minute to dive singles, but we would give the boat a chance before going to a nearby shore diving site.

Well, my buddy have only brought doubles gear so I loaned him my spare singles wing and a DIN adapter and he had no problems using my wing because it functioned exactly the same, the inflator was in the same place, the dump was in the same place as his other wings: doubles and singles. I don't think that would have been as easy for him with the Delta wing, or for a new diver starting out in the Delta wing then transitioning to a traditional doubles wing, and ultimately switching back and forth every weekend (like I have been known to do).

I still believe that as Thinking Divers we should be able to adapt to new equipment and situations but I don't see how the Delta wing fits in, as I'm changing my muscle memory every time I switch between doubles and singles configurations. IMO it's better to keep everything as similar as possible and change only when the situation demands it for safety, not just because we can.

Peace,
Greg

 

[ucfdiver]

Knowledge of failures and handling of failure still remain the same for the OC systems. pSCR and MX have added complexity, but are still built on top of OC units. Remove the rebreather, and you're back to a set of doubles.

That's like saying SM is nothing more than doubles when you remove the manifold

Honestly mixed teams are mixed teams, I'm not sure why we put a wig on a pig and call it DIR.

 

[liuk3]

If you let the term DIR go and realize that its meaning has been diluted with the multidude of agencies and instructors claiming the moniker, you just don't get as upset anymore trying to defend it's definition. You just realize that there are different agencies now free to create their own protocols and standards. If you don't agree with UTD's stance, find an agency/instructor that better closely matches what you are looking for, or find buddies willing to dive the way you want to dive. I may be a fan boy of a different agency, but even I can admit that it's been impressive how quickly UTD has come onto the scene and created a following. For many people, UTD is the right choice in training and equipment. More power to them for being able to attract these customers, and good for them for trying to come out with new dive products. I may not like their product, but I think that it's great that they are introducing offerings for those who are seeking it. I think that competition is ultimately good for consumers.

 

[iztok]

If you let the term DIR go and realize that its meaning has been diluted with the multidude of agencies and instructors claiming the moniker, you just don't get as upset anymore trying to defend it's definition. You just realize that there are different agencies now free to create their own protocols and standards. If you don't agree with UTD's stance, find an agency/instructor that better closely matches what you are looking for, or find buddies willing to dive the way you want to dive. I may be a fan boy of a different agency, but even I can admit that it's been impressive how quickly UTD has come onto the scene and created a following. For many people, UTD is the right choice in training and equipment. More power to them for being able to attract these customers, and good for them for trying to come out with new dive products. I may not like their product, but I think that it's great that they are introducing offerings for those who are seeking it. I think that competition is ultimately good for consumers.

Too bad that no instructors around here

 

[rjack321]

UTD pushed training, being the first to offer quality instructional videos, modular classes, and minis. I think that everyone agrees that this has been to the benefit of the larger DIR community. Why wouldn't pushing what we consider DIR equipment do the same?

Don, it would be great if the revised and updated skills videos which have been "pending" for over a year could get released instead of a "great new product" every other month. So there's the scuba gear equivalent of Cafepress, that doesn't mean that ever possible concept should be thrown on the wall to see what sticks.

I still believe that as Thinking Divers we should be able to adapt to new equipment and situations but I don't see how the Delta wing fits in, as I'm changing my muscle memory every time I switch between doubles and singles configurations. IMO it's better to keep everything as similar as possible and change only when the situation demands it for safety, not just because we can.

I just wanted to repeat this.

 

[calicant]

It might be interesting to buy a Delta with an orange inflater hose and wear it to frighten my GUE instructor on a halloween training dive.