New UTD rig, thoughts?

[ae3753]

We can both route our inflators like this and practice the basic 69

I'm on top :shocked2:

 

[Rainer]

This is a good question - can all these systems diving together be considered DIR? Obviously, UTD thinks so.

But for everyone else, what level of equipment specifity is mandated by DIR. Must there be a backplate? Must tanks be back mounted?

I'd start by asking that my teammates at least have similar gear...

I'm not really interested in learning five(+) different configurations, all requiring different responses in rescue scenarios. Once you throw out gear standardization (at least within the team), probably best not to refer to what you have as DIR.

 

[TSandM]

This obviously leads to the never answerable question of "what is DIR?" When it was just GUE and WKPP people, it was easy. When UTD was started, we went through it again. Now I think the term is totally in the wind and may be meaningless.

The goals of a team-oriented approach to diving, stressing simplicity, streamlining, scaleability, and consistency across diving environments are things I think most people would associate with what has been known as DIR diving. GUE has some pretty clear definitions of what they consider to be acceptable equipment, gases, and procedures.

I'm not sure what's acceptable to UTD any more.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

This obviously leads to the never answerable question of "what is DIR?" When it was just GUE and WKPP people, it was easy. When UTD was started, we went through it again. Now I think the term is totally in the wind and may be meaningless.

The goals of a team-oriented approach to diving, stressing simplicity, streamlining, scaleability, and consistency across diving environments are things I think most people would associate with what has been known as DIR diving. GUE has some pretty clear definitions of what they consider to be acceptable equipment, gases, and procedures.

I'm not sure what's acceptable to UTD any more.

While GUE training, the DIR philosophy and Halcyon products were enormously innovative and had a huge impact on how we dive and the diving industry as a whole for the last decade, I think we are going to begin to see GUE and Halcyon fall behind in innovation, partly due to a lack of motivation and partly because the organization has grown so large that changes will be slow to come. Many DIR divers are happy with the philosophy, the equipment, and many prospective students are still lining up to pass GUE-Fundies. The reduced motivation within the organization is apparent to those who remember a greater drive to explore and innovate.

However, outside of the philosophy, side mount, no mount, and rebreather technologies are allowing divers to make new discoveries at a more rapid rate than what is being achieved within the DIR world. An example of this is Agnes Milowka's extension of Peacock.

Within the DIR community, Andrew is more passionate and driven. While many may scoff at his motivations, discredit his designs, or dislike his changes, all you need to do is spend 5 minutes with him and you come away energized and excited.

As divers, we can let DIR define us, or we can worry about defining DIR, or we can apply what we learned within the philosophy to keep moving forward into new and exciting possibilities. I think UTD is doing the latter.

 

[Jeff_S]

I'm not sure what's acceptable to UTD any more.

Lynne, I believe we make it very clear that we stand for team diving and the thinking diver. The term DIR has been used and abused by almost every agency that bumps into teaching any form of tech, but we are clear - we dive and teach team protocols. And as we continue to develop new and interesting (read "fun") ways to dive, we will continue to teach team protocols, as that's what we believe makes the safest divers.

As you found out when you tested the Z-System, there are lots of new and exciting ways to do the same old thing. So within the bounds of safety and teamwork, we are looking at lots of cool stuff. One of the most successful things we've done is create three systems that all dive seamlessly with each other: back mount, side mount, and the MX-Series of rebreathers - same gas sharing protocols, same standard gases, same deco profiles.

I dove the MX-KISS this weekend with a couple of friends in backgas doubles. No worries, no problems, just a team of three, our little zodiac, and a cool wreck.

If it stops being fun and interesting, it will be the end of the sport.

Jeff

 

[VooDooGasMan]

The shape of the bladder has already been around, it is either long ago, or maybe in the last decade. Either herman, or captian, or a few others on vintage forumn will remember. The inflator, well I would have to agree for possible damage in some situations. Now streamline, to change that is a great thought to be had, so to involve the can-light and argon bottle for steamline, I can see where it has an effect to carry those items concealed.

Happ Diving

 

[cfenton]

While GUE training, the DIR philosophy and Halcyon products were enormously innovative and had a huge impact on how we dive and the diving industry as a whole for the last decade, I think we are going to begin to see GUE and Halcyon fall behind in innovation, partly due to a lack of motivation and partly because the organization has grown so large that changes will be slow to come. Many DIR divers are happy with the philosophy, the equipment, and many prospective students are still lining up to pass GUE-Fundies. The reduced motivation within the organization is apparent to those who remember a greater drive to explore and innovate.

Keep in mind that I only started diving in 2003, so my scope on this topic is pretty limited. But, since 2003 I’ve never personally thought of Halcyon as an overly innovative company. I see them as a company the makes solid, reliable, quality dive gear. It is extremely rare for truly innovative companies to not produce flops repeatedly. Halcyon doesn’t do this (ignoring the SS inflators...). I personally pay a premium, not because I believe extensive R&D is built into the price, but because of quality gear and brand loyalty to GUE. Now, I see GUE as an innovator in dive training. But, generally speaking their innovations seem well thought through before being released. In my opinion the one truly good thing that came out of Andrew leaving GUE was that it seems to have lit a fire under GUE’s ass to make the changes to standards and training materials that people had been asking for for years.

Within the DIR community, Andrew is more passionate and driven. While many may scoff at his motivations, discredit his designs, or dislike his changes, all you need to do is spend 5 minutes with him and you come away energized and excited.

As divers, we can let DIR define us, or we can worry about defining DIR, or we can apply what we learned within the philosophy to keep moving forward into new and exciting possibilities. I think UTD is doing the latter.

I completely agree with what you say about Andrew. In a way I think he is sticking his neck out here with all of these new products. I do see DiveX/UTD as innovative companies in terms of dive gear and training. As a result they are coming up with some things that seem to be flopping – nature of the beast. I personally think that the measured, well thought out pace that GUE/Halcyon demonstrates is better for DIR diving. Maybe the nature of GUE’s organization structure is responsible for this slow and steady success?

Trace, if we didn’t debate the definition of DIR, what would be the point of the internet...?

 

[rjack321]

As you found out when you tested the Z-System, there are lots of new and exciting ways to do the same old thing. So within the bounds of safety and teamwork, we are looking at lots of cool stuff. One of the most successful things we've done is create three systems that all dive seamlessly with each other: back mount, side mount, and the MX-Series of rebreathers - same gas sharing protocols, same standard gases, same deco profiles.

Jeff I'd like to agree with you. But I think your "innovative" products which have product lifespans less than a cell phone are in no way "unified" equipment standards.

Teammates don't intuitively understand gas management in a sidemount Z system due to the IP balancing issues, ICS appears to have pulled out of supporting the Mx90, the delta has a constrictive bladder and appears to need a markedly different sized LP hose. Who knows how anyone would do a toxing diver rescue with the delta too. You've quietly started teaching on the KISS, and from what I can tell from the pics those students are not backmounting bailout ala other "DIR" rebreather concepts. The list of unique modifications goes on and on. That would be great if you were TDI, IANTD or PADI, they have "personal preference" as their middle name.

Unified at one time meant gear, attitude, training, and scalability from the simplest reef to the most complex cave. That's lost now in this ADD urge to tinker with gear. Its also embarassing how transient and fleeting the product development and post-distribution support has become.

 

[Blackwood]

Cuff dumps. Nice idea until you drive your buddy crazy with the constant light signaling.

*Shrug*

Andrew, Jeff and Ari (three who have cuff dumps) manage to use theirs without disco balling me.

I've never used one and see no particular reason to, but to each his own.

Either way, in my impression (both in formal classes and just bull****ting at the bar) Andrew is exceedingly quick. There are two possibilities. He is wicked smart, or he knows his ****. I suspect it's a combination of both.

Lynne, I believe we make it very clear that we stand for team diving and the thinking diver. The term DIR has been used and abused by almost every agency that bumps into teaching any form of tech, but we are clear - we dive and teach team protocols. And as we continue to develop new and interesting (read "fun") ways to dive, we will continue to teach team protocols, as that's what we believe makes the safest divers.

Team diving is clearly a priority: it's right there in the name. I can't help but wondering why the agency continues with the term DIR given your observations above about the use and abuse thereof. Obviously it's up to you and AG to run your agency as you see fit, but I can almost guarantee that, since people have a historical understanding of "DIR", every time you veer from it, you're going to get a bunch of pushback.

And maybe that's a good thing. I don't know.

 

[Jeff_S]

Teammates don't intuitively understand gas management in a sidemount Z system due to the IP balancing issues, ICS appears to have pulled out of supporting the Mx90, the delta has a constrictive bladder and appears to need a markedly different sized LP hose. Who knows how anyone would do a toxing diver rescue with the delta too. You've quietly started teaching on the KISS, and from what I can tell from the pics those students are not backmounting bailout ala other "DIR" rebreather concepts.

Richard, I want to address some of this before it snowballs down the internet hill.

There currently is no gas management problem or problem with mis-matched IP's in the Z-System because it is still a single tank recreational system. The tech version has not been released yet, is still with the R&D team, and when it is released, it will work.

Does it matter that the Delta needs a slightly different sized LP hose, really? In testing we did toxing diver recoveries and if anything, it's easier than in a traditional wing since the dump is basically sitting completely accessible next to the victim's dry suit exhaust valve.

Re: the KISS - the pictures you saw from our factory training that day were of me diving the MX-KISS and Andrew diving the stock Classic, so we had an opportunity to see it perform in both configurations. Remember, the MX is a configuration of existing rebreathers - so far the Meg, the Hammerhead, and the KISS. Although they differ in construction and plumbing, they are all configured identically from an operator's standpoint and integrate seamlessly into a mixed team of CCR and back mount or Z-System side mount OC - same long hose, same standard gases, same deco profiles.

All of these systems are designed and thought out to work with each other while staying true to how we dive and how we teach.

Again, I encourage you to dive the Delta before you judge it. We are going to make the rigs available for demo as soon as we can, and we'll be sure to get a couple to Seattle for you all to test.

Jeff