Nitrox class question

[radagalf]

It is threads like this one that have led me to peruse scubaboard less and less. Discussing and disagreeing with someone's opinion about a certain topic, and presenting the facts as to why you have your opinion is valid and appreciated.

But the slanderous remarks made by certain people towards others are disgusting and immature. I feel that many topics on this board have been overshadowed by lowly bickering instead of leading to the thoughtful discussions of scuba ideas that they should.

 

[mgri]

FLL Diver once bubbled...


What's false? GUE is not a member of the World Recreational Scuba Training Council, and as such are not recognized as a "certifying" agency.

Everything I've ever read says this is how one defines a certifying agency.

On the lists that the different agencies have that shows what certification they consider equivalent levels of certification, nto one lists any GUE course.

Marc

I'm confused... what does a tech agency care about a recreational council.

Secondly, all that industrial councils or federations do is make suggestions to practices or producers within said industry. They can help to establish guide lines and common practices but that's about it. they can also help to keep Uncle Sam away because it gives the impression of self regulation.

In the world of SCUBA the people who decide what is or what is not a "certifying agency" is the dive shop and the boat captain. If a dive shop wants, they can take a diver at his word that he is a good diver and give him a fill, of course, it's not a good idea to do so in our sue happy country.

So, what's the point, are you just agency bashing?
Mark

 

[James connell]

FLL Diver once bubbled...


I should have clarified that I was asking about accredited agencies that can issue certifications. GUE can't issue cards, and those classes you cite aren't regular Nitrox certification classes.

So if none of the accredited agencies have rescuing tox'ed divers as a standard in their Nitrox certification classses, why the pile on?

Marc

this is hogwash! there are no "accredited" agencies - anybody can can print a C card and say 'you're a diver'. you don't even have to "teach" someone to dive ( before some witt says it, i might as well - so THAT's how padi does it!), just give them a C card. not all centers may reconize it but i'd bet many would for boat trips and fills.

 

[Karl_in_Calif]

Spectre once bubbled...


My issue has nothing to do with the standards. My issue is purely with his reasoning behind _why_ he doesn't feel it should be taught.... that it's impossible to tox at 1.6 or below. That is false, and dangerous to lead people to believe.

Swimming comfortably on the surface
Swimming comfortably underwater
Snorkeling & clearing your snorkel on the surface
Freediving & clearing your snorkel upon surfacing
Mask clearing underwater
Skin diving gear ditching & replacement underwater
Open water freediving & weighting adjustment
Scuba gear assembly poolside
Predive buddy checks ABCDW
Breathing on scuba
Regulator clearing
Regulator recovery & clearing
Mask clearing on scuba
Buoyancy adjustment with power inflator
Buoyancy adjustment orally
Hovering
Touching the surface of the pool from underwater
Pool touring
Tows
Cramp relief
Air sharing
ESA
EBA
Gear ditching & replacement on the surface
Gear ditching & replacement underwater
Pool rescue skills
SEABAG & buddy checks
Beach diving
Open water emergency skills check
Open water touring
Comprehensive skills check
Open water ESA
Compass navigation out & back
Depth limitations based on PO2 and PN2
Air vs Nitrox
Depth limitations based on FO2
Nitrox touring
Advanced navigation
Search & recovery
Night diving
Deeper diving
Boat diving
CPR & first aid
Open water rescue training

Never said I would not teach it. Said I would never teach it in an EANx course.

 

[Walter]

WOW!

It has gotten heated in here and it is getting a tad personal. Let's all try to remember to be respectful of everyone. We can disagree with someone's opinions without getting personal.

Seems there are several issues that are causing the water to boil over. Do the various agencies require teaching rescue of ox toxed divers in their nitrox classes? Should they require it?

Looks like the answer to the first question is probably (although I haven't looked) no and most folks think the second (Karl is a vocal exception) should be answered yes.

If an instructor's agency doesn't require rescue of ox toxed divers in their nitrox classes should they teach it anyway?

It looks like most folks here (again, Karl being a notable exception) think this should be answered yes.

It looks to me that these issues have been debated enough for anyone reading this thread to form an opinion on the issue and that those involved in the debate aren't going to change their minds, why beat a dead horse?

Marc,

I've heard of the RSTC, but not the WRSTC. I've never heard of membership in the RSTC being a requirement for an agency to be recognized. Most agencies are older than the RSTC and were recognized before the RSTC existed and are still recognized. YMCA refused to join the RSTC when it was formed, but later did become a member. NAUI is not currently a member.

James,

"you don't even have to "teach" someone to dive ( before some witt says it, i might as well - so THAT's how padi does it!), just give them a C card."

This is not a fair statement as it is not true. While I'll be the first to say PADI's standards need, in my opinion, an overhaul; they don't hand out cards without teaching. I'm sure there might be instructors who do that, but any such instructors are in violation of standards. PADI is not responsible for standards violations unless they ignore those of which they are aware. As far as I'm aware, PADI follows up on reports of standards violations. Unfounded accusations do everyone a disservice.

 

[5615mike]

Wow...............glad I aksed the question. I had no idea it would get this heated. Obviously there are a number of side notes that can be addressed just out of the circle of my original question which lead to me asking the question in the first place. Obviously the requirements of dives is NOT the main issue here but you guys have made many valid points that I am going to keep for future reference.
Thanks

 

[Big-t-2538]

Walter once bubbled...
Do the various agencies require teaching rescue of ox toxed divers in their nitrox classes? Should they require it?

Looks like the answer to the first question is probably (although I haven't looked) no and most folks think the second (Karl is a vocal exception) should be answered yes.

If an instructor's agency doesn't require rescue of ox toxed divers in their nitrox classes should they teach it anyway?

It looks like most folks here (again, Karl being a notable exception) think this should be answered yes.

MAybe this is something that some of the Mitrox and Rescue instructors will begin to bring up in their classes based upon what was seen here in this thread. I feel that with more and more people diving nitrox recreationally, we are going to see some more and more incidents over time...thus making rescuing a toxing diver something that we (those of us with Nitrox Training or rescue training) should be aware of.

Frankly I feel it should be taught in both the nitrox course and recue diver course. It makes for another chance to so some practice dives in a pool. And it could possibly save a life of a buddy one day.

 

[James connell]

Walter once bubbled...

James,

"you don't even have to "teach" someone to dive ( before some witt says it, i might as well - so THAT's how padi does it!), just give them a C card."

This is not a fair statement as it is not true. While I'll be the first to say PADI's standards need, in my opinion, an overhaul; they don't hand out cards without teaching. I'm sure there might be instructors who do that, but any such instructors are in violation of standards. PADI is not responsible for standards violations unless they ignore those of which they are aware. As far as I'm aware, PADI follows up on reports of standards violations. Unfounded accusations do everyone a disservice.

of course it's not a "fair" statement about padi! it was said with full sarcasm not as fact.
but in fact you don't have to teach a course! just get some pretty C cards printed up from a completly bogus "agency", pass them out to a few non diving friends and see what i mean. of course don't actuay let these friends dive - but i bet they can get fills, boat rides ect! this is just what the "tek" guys did - they started issuing cards for "advanced" courses. the problem is when some fool hurts/kills themselves on YOUR card - then you have to "prove" that your standards are not at fault.

 

[Walter]

"this is just what the "tek" guys did - they started issuing cards"

Actually, that's how all the agencies started. They never received any authorization to issue cards nor is any needed.

 

[coberry7]

Agreed. I ask who would be the authorizing authority anyway? It's a self regulated industry.

Soooo, And this is directed at everyone...who teaches rescuing OX TOX divers in a basic Nitrox course. I learned NiTrox from SDI. Just the basics, you know. There was no mention of OxTox Rescue in the rescue diver course that I took with SDI either. I've never even heard it discussed among the professionals I hang out with.

I want to learn how to do this without learning how to via ScubaBoard. Someone name the agency that does! (If it has been mentioned before, sorry, I don't have all day to read every post in here.)

Colin Berry