Nitrox regulators?

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jplacson

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Ok, I know enough to know that a reg can be cleaned for Nitrox..or at least up to 40% anyway... can ANY reg be cleaned for Nitrox use? What about higher mixes?

Now, I was just wondering... what's all the fuss about combustion? When does it happen? Or more importantly, why? What would ignite the O2?

Has it ever happened? Does it happen at depth? What exactly are the dangers of not using a Nitrox cleaned reg? Why do they happen? Thanks! :)
 
1. No, as far as I know, there are some Titanium or something regs wich are not for use with nitrox, I don't realy know why.
2. Most regs comes ready for nitrox and do not require cleaning for up to 40% but for higher mixes, you must clean it and after that, not to use that reg for anything else than nitrox, it'll just get oil in.
3. Regarding mixes higher than 50%, they are delt as pure oxygen and as such, they require special oxygen ready regs.
4. On a normal use, the combustion would accure at the time of filling the tank, not the use. This is due to the fact that you compress the gas very quickly to the tank and the friction of the gas when passing through the valve into the tank heats the area. This is the most dangerous time.
5. Yes it happens every once in a while. I don't remember a URL to write you here but I think it happens at list a few times a year throughout the world.

Don't mess with it, your life worth more !
 
Hmm... if the danger occurs during filling... why can't the tanks be filled using a nitrox reg, then transferred over to a regular reg? Just a though... shouldn't this be a filling station's feature? Why does the diver's reg have to be nitrox cleaned?

I'm just curious... I'm about to take my Nitrox classes and I just wanna find out as much as I can.

I've never seen a nitrox filling station, but don't they just plug straight to the tank? I mean, do I have to give them my regulator to fill? Diving regular air, tanks are filled up... and you just attach your reg and go... what does filling the tank have to do with the regulator attached to it?

...recap... let me get this straight... most regs (all but the titanium ones) can be used for Nitrox mixes upto 40%? even without cleaning? Does that mean I can dive air, then nitrox on the same day, and same reg without cleaning..as long as the mix is below 40%?

Thanks for the info. :) Will save me a lot of trouble of having to save up for another reg.
 
Here's the real information from a Nitrox Instructor...

1. There are regulators out there that are cleaned for use with Nitrox, or so the manufacture clames. Regulators do not require cleaning for use with Nitrox up to 40% O2 so there is no need to pay the extra money to buy a "Nitrox Cleaned Reg" or to have your reg cleaned for use with Nitrox as long as you're not going to use it above 40% O2.

2. Yes you can use the same regulator to dive regular dive shop air and then switch to Nitrox without any trouble. The mix you are breathing is already 40% or less when it comes out of the tank so the regulator does not need to be cleaned.

3. Tanks and valves on the other had do require cleaning because some dive shops do what is called partial pressure blending of Nitrox. This where several hundred psi (depending on the blend required) of 100% O2 is put into the tank and then filled to the working pressure (3000 psi) with specially filtered air that has had all hydrocarbons removed. Once tanks and valves are cleaned they can not be filled with air from a regular dive shop. They can be filled with straight air (21%O2) that has been specially filtered for use as blending air for Nitrox. If the dive shop does not do Nitrox fills they can not fill your tanks, if they do, the tanks must be cleaned again before they can be used for Nitrox.

4. Combustion occures when O2 is compressed to a point that contamination in the system (oil, metal shavings etc.) will combust. O2 does not burn, it supports combustion. It can occure at anytime, even with then the diver opens the tank valve and pressurises his regulator. The gas from the tank expands into the first stage regulator and runs into sharp turns within the regulator as well as the regulating portion of the regulator and is compressed again. This can cause a hot spot and combustion can occure if there is contamination in the system. This does not happen very often with low %'s of O2 (40% and less) but a diver should still be aware of it and open the tank valve slowely.

5. Regulators are not attached to the tank when they are filled. They are filled from a "Fill Wip" connetced to a filling station.

I hope this helps you understand things a little better. Nitrox is a great and wounderful thing if it is used correctly and the rules are followed. Pay close attention during the class and you'll learn a lot.

Scott
 
Padipro once bubbled...
Here's the real information from a Nitrox Instructor...

4. Combustion occures when O2 is compressed to a point that contamination in the system (oil, metal shavings etc.) will combust. O2 does not burn, it supports combustion. It can occure at anytime, even with then the diver opens the tank valve and pressurises his regulator. The gas from the tank expands into the first stage regulator and runs into sharp turns within the regulator as well as the regulating portion of the regulator and is compressed again. This can cause a hot spot and combustion can occure if there is contamination in the system. This does not happen very often with low %'s of O2 (40% and less) but a diver should still be aware of it and open the tank valve slowely.

Scott

Thanks!!! That clears up a whole lot! :) I was actually worried that the 'combustion' everyone was talking about happens in use, and at depth! :boom: :p

hehehe... I was imagining a diver inhaling an entire breath of fire!!! :confused: hahahaha... thanks for clearing up a lot of my questions :)
 
An O2 cleaned tank and reg can be used with air as long as it is grade E or better. Nearly every shop that does nitrox fills will have a compressor that produces compressed air to this standard for their air fills as it is cheaper than maintianing two separate compressors for air and nitrox fills. They should have the air quality checked every 6 months and have the test certificate posted on the wall so that you cna see what you are getting.

Combustion requires fuel, oxygen and an ingnition source. If any one of these elements is missing, a fire will not occur.

In a tank or regulator combustion is prevented by O2 cleaning to remove any potential fuel. This means removing all oil and rubber products that might burn in a high O2 content environment.

In a regulator first stage it is usually non O2 compatible O-rings or O-ring lubricants that will burn. Ignition comes from the heat generated by rapid compression of air in the reg and the real risk is when turning on the tank valve too rapidly, not during normal use. Turning the valve on slowly helps as does leaving the purge button slightly depressed while you turn on the valve. (This is a good idea with any reg even with air because it prevents the sealing edge of the piston or orifice from slamming into the high pressure seat and will help it last longer.)

The "fire" itself is usually very brief and a non event that is only noticed by the resulting leak in the first stage from a failed O-ring. Evidence of a fire is not normally found until the reg is taken apart for service and the charred O-ring is observed.

The infamous fire breathing reg is not something I have ever seen. This is not to say it could not happen, but it is I think more of an urban legend than a common occurrence.

Titanium regs are not recommended for high O2 applications due to the properties of the metal in a pure O2 environment. Personally, I have never sene the appeal of a titanium reg. Chrome plated brass has an excellent record of performance and is quite corrosion resitant. A brass reg will last for decades and the same can not yet be said for titanium. And any weight savings from titanium in the reg will have to be made up with lead on the weight belt anyway.
 
In a tank or regulator combustion is prevented by O2 cleaning to remove any potential fuel. This means removing all oil and rubber products that might burn in a high O2 content environment.

There is no such thing as "preventing" combustion where there are soft parts present.

Brass will not burn to 10,000 psi of pure O2. However, Viton O-rings definitely WILL burn, and so will nylon 6/6 seats (which are normally considered "oxygen compatable." If you get Christolube hot enough (290F or so) it will decompose into flourine compounds (which are NASTY - as in one breath and you can die from it stuff.)

The ENTIRE trick is to not create the hotspots and to remove all gross (e.g. loose hydrocarbons, loose bits of carbon steel, etc) contamination. However, that does not PREVENT O2 fires, it just makes them less likely.

Slamming valves open is a VERY bad practice, and sooner or later you will pay for it. Most of the time, as noted, you don't get the "regulator in flames" deal, you get a flash fire and a major leak (the fuel source is immediately consumed and the fire goes out when there is nothing left that will burn.) The major safety gain with O2-cleaning is that the fire will go OUT (the fuel is limited to the O-ring or seat that combusts); what is REAL dangerous is if it stays lit long enough and with enough fuel to get a hose or something similar going, or if there is enough fuel in the tank or a path back to it to sustain combustion - then you get either a very ugly fire or potentially even an explosion.

There is enough fuel in the average tank valve or regulator seat to blow the seat plug clear out of the assembly all on its own.

Don't slam valves on, O2-clean or not, and keep body parts away from the potential ejection sites when you DO turn on valves (e.g. the end of valve bonnets and regulaor HP seat caps.)

For all intents and purposes any FO2 over 50% may be treated as pure O2 - over 50% O2 gas behaves under pressure close enough to pure oxygen that you may as well treat it as if it is.
 
agstreet once bubbled...


<snicker>

And what's there to snicker about? I wanted jp to know that the information I was giving him was coming from a informed source. Was something I said wrong? Do you know more then the rest of us? If so then why don't you enlighten us with your knowledge?
 
Padipro once bubbled...
Here's the real information from a Nitrox Instructor...

1. There are regulators out there that are cleaned for use with Nitrox, or so the manufacture clames. Regulators do not require cleaning for use with Nitrox up to 40% O2 so there is no need to pay the extra money to buy a "Nitrox Cleaned Reg" or to have your reg cleaned for use with Nitrox as long as you're not going to use it above 40% O2.

2. Yes you can use the same regulator to dive regular dive shop air and then switch to Nitrox without any trouble. The mix you are breathing is already 40% or less when it comes out of the tank so the regulator does not need to be cleaned.

Scott

This is the REAL information from a Nitrox Instructor (for more than one agency), Course Director, and one of the heads of Technical Support for Sherwood and Genesis Scuba.

Padipro, you are going to get somebody hurt.

I won't speak for the other manufacturers, but Sherwood and Genesis stand firm on this policy.

DO NOT use Sherwood or Genesis regulators, with the exception of the OZ, until they are serviced with an Enriched Air Service Kit.
This is also a good rule of thumb for ANY regulator that does not specifically state that it is okay for use with anything but air.

There are more than a few confirmed cases of a flash burn on a standard, not cleaned regulator by each of the manufacturers. Enough that it's just plain not worth the chance of destroying your gear if not something far worse.

As an instructor you should know already that this is FAR from an income source for your local dive shop. This is 100% a safety issue that should not ever be ignored.

Regardless what you think the math says, and what the ill-informed nitrox instructors out there say or think, if your regulator is not serviced with parts that are acceptable with concentrations of Oxygen greater than that of breathing air, don't use it for diving Enriched Air until it is.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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