Nomad JT or Bogaerts Razor 2 system??

[cool_hardware52]

Why's it so hard to admit that 45 lbs isn't enough lift for all cases?

Threads like this have the potential to be helpful for the wider readership, but introducing false arguments serves no one.

I've never said 45 lbs covers all applications. No wing covers all applications.

DSS makes 16 wings (and a few more we don't actively market) If one wing was the universal answer we would offer *1*, not 16+

However that's not what is at issue here.

The claim has been made that the Razor is unfit for use with Steel Cylinders.

That blanket statement is untrue. There are many perfectly reasonable, safe applications for a 45 lbs lift wing and steel cylinders.

Pretty much any combo of suit buoyancy and main cylinder gas weight that is less than or equal to 45 lbs can be accommodated.

My drysuit is just over 20 lbs positive with minimum gas in it. 45-21 = 24. 24 lbs is a lot of gas, over 300 cuft of air or nitrox, and considerably more with increasing He %.

I often use a 32 lbs lift *doubles* wing when I dive my *steel* 2 x lp 45's in my same 21 lbs drysuit. They hold less than 10 lbs of gas. 10 + 21 = 31 > 32

It's a great fun light set for shallow shore dives. It's not appropriate for larger tanks and or more buoyant suits.

Tobin

 

[^Diver Derek]

I beleive its TDI but i was on a stores website and it said age 15

 

[break4]

Do you ever plan on diving steel cylinders? If the answer is a definite no, then the JT is probably overkill. However, the lift of the Razor 2 is also overkill for AL80s with no additional cylinders.

Just from this usage I would say you haven't been diving with either of the two systems. You may defend your systems but please don't attack system where you have no clou how they work. Designing a wing is not just about lift. It is as well how the air gets ditributed. So for this we made a lot of prototypes and best, we didn't talk just in the forums about it. We dove them to the extrem. So that's why we ended up with the BAT wing that works just great! It gives you an extremly stable platform in all 360° and that as well if really heavy loaded, cause the lift and the balast is at the center point of the body. I was diving it with four full Alu 80's and 25 lbs of weights on 120 feet without being even close to use the whole amount of lift of the wing. For sure this doesn't work anymore, if you go with a 3 mm shorty and 4 heavy steel tanks to 200 feet. So for sure you will find a situation where you don't have enough lift, but then in 99.9% of the cases I can tell you that your configuration doesn't make sense. I would be actually interested what type of dives you are doing?

What are your reasons for narrowing it down to these 2 systems? What are the attributes you like about them? What kind of diving are you planning on doing in sidemount?

Probably because these are the two most discussed ones

How are the extra bungees supposed to be changed out underwater?

This shows me again, that you have no clou at all about the Razor and how it works.

This is not true. With the proper technique thigh pockets are very easy to access with SM cylinders. I have no problems accessing them, even with LP108s.

On this I even agree with you but it is so much more practical to have a pouch, that you easely can take to the front, clip it to your D rings, take out whatever you need or just leave it there for survey for example, than trying to find something in your pouches blind and with gloves.

As well to show you at least how the Razor works with steels check out this short video:
YouTube - ‪Steve Bogaerts dives the Razor 2 System with Steel tanks‬‏

This is nothing personal, but I don't like it at all, if people are talking and giving opinions about equipment, that they haven't even seen in real life diving. And I think with my 5 years of SM diving I know, what I'm talking about, cause I dove the other rigs as well.

 

[^Diver Derek]

I have never held either. But the Jt looks quite larger than the Razor. With your comment about the razor wing having a high profile, which in your opinion have a lower profile.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I've never said 45 lbs covers all applications. No wing covers all applications.

Thats what we've been argueing about the entire time...

The claim has been made that the Razor is unfit for use with Steel Cylinders.

I think I've made it quite clear that I was talking about heavier steels. Not HP100s, not LP45s, LP72s(my fav's over AL80s due to smaller dimensions, potentially more gas, and the fact they don't get positive), etc. I've done nothing but point out heavier steels in my replies.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Thats what we've been argueing about the entire time...



I think I've made it quite clear that I was talking about heavier steels. Not HP100s, not LP45s, LP72s(my fav's over AL80s due to smaller dimensions, potentially more gas, and the fact they don't get positive), etc. I've done nothing but point out heavier steels in my replies.

Once more, it's not the tanks, it's the combination of gas weight and suit buoyancy that determines min required lift.

Tobin

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Once more, thats only if you balance your rig the way YOU do, which is NOT the way everyone does.

Just like in my example...

2 HP130s with a wetsuit and 45 lbs won't cut it at 120', I know this because I've been there. I would have no problem with lifting 4 or 5 AL80s to get the same amount of gas, but that would have been ridiculous to take on when the same amount of gas could be brought with just two steel tanks.

Sorry, thats not the answer for people who want to have fun diving

 

[cool_hardware52]

Once more, thats only if you balance your rig the way YOU do, which is NOT the way everyone does.

Just like in my example...

2 HP130s with a wetsuit and 45 lbs won't cut it at 120', I know this because I've been there.

How does one end up at 120 without enough BC lift?

With the most basic planning this is entirely avoidable.

Tobin

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

The plan was to dive Bozell, it went to 120', so we did too.



I assumed my 45 lbs of lift would be adaquate, it wasn't. My planning on this dive has nothing to do with this thread Did you not accuse someone else of a red herring earlier?

 

[cool_hardware52]

The plan was to dive Bozell, it went to 120', so we did too.



I assumed my 45 lbs of lift would be adaquate, it wasn't. My planning on this dive has nothing to do with this thread Did you not accuse someone else of a red herring earlier?

Seems a fair question to pose to somebody promoting diving overweighted....

Tobin