NSS-CDS Effectiveness

[Superlyte27]

Do any of you think the CDS does a poor, dangerous job of training divers to dive in caves? @tbone1004 @rjack321 @rddvet @CptTightPants21 ?

The CDS? No, but the cds doesn’t train cave divers. Independent Contractors, ie Instructors train cave divers. And they’re are some bad instructors. And before you ask me to name a few, remember how this went the last time you asked me. You don’t have Tom Mount to threaten me into submission this time. Not that it worked last time.

But every agency I’ve seen, except one, has bad instructors. And I’m sure that one agency does too, I’ve just never met one yet.

I think the cds does as good a job as they are able. I think they are using 100% capacity of what they are capable of. I think if they want to increase that capacity, they need a fresh group of people with fresh ideas and let the old ways go away. We evolve. For example, recently I was chastised by an instructor for not teaching dive tables. I led him down a path talking about time, value and money and asked him how much time it costs to teach tables every week, every year x every student. I said,”literally, how many hours is that “. He pulled out his phone to do the math and I flipped and said, “Wait! You can’t use your phone. Where’s your abacus”. He didn’t even know what an abacus was.

the point is, we don’t use a 2000 year old wooden calculator to do math because we evolved. I don’t teach dive tables for the same reason.

Agencies need to evolve too. If leadership is incapable of evolving, get new leadership. Not the same 10 guys cycled through for two decades.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Independent Contractors, ie Instructors train cave divers.

I reckon that is true for all...?

 

[Superlyte27]

I reckon that is true for all...?

Agreed

 

[Superlyte27]

I really don’t think they’re doing a horrible job. I just think it would be easy to be better. They’re just average now. Who wants that?

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

For me -- I am comfortable if after I certify a cave diver they can swim through a cave without silting, can run a reel, have good awareness of buddies, cave configuration, deco, gas pressure, good buoyancy control, have proper gear configuration, are aware of and practice conservation, exhibit good cave etiquette, don't flop around, do not conduct trust me dives, know their limitations to name a few.

 

[Superlyte27]

For me -- I am comfortable if after I certify a cave diver they can swim through a cave without silting, can run a reel, have good awareness of buddies, cave configuration, deco, gas pressure, good buoyancy control, have proper gear configuration, are aware of and practice conservation, exhibit good cave etiquette, don't flop around, do not conduct trust me dives, know their limitations to name a few.

You’re not the CDS. There is no question that the CDS has great instructors. I think the OP is postulating that the problem is bigger than the average quality of the instructor base.

 

[tbone1004]

Y'all were taught these things, right?

yes, though I usually dive quarters any time I'm in a 2-man team. It tends to be easier than thirds plus 200, albeit to a nearly identical effect. Quarter in, quarter out, quarter for my buddy if he needs it, and quarter to look for said buddy if he decided to vanish *or the line if I messed up and lost it*.

 

[tbone1004]

Gee, I wonder why? Lol
You’re asking them to give up the bulk of their revenue. Who would do that?
I have zero dog in this fight, and believe other agencies do it far better, but I still would never suggest moving away from training.

I think fresh ideas and fresh bod and TD is needed. I think cds needs to get current and out of the 19th century in just about every way possible. But an old dog doesn’t learn new tricks. Until ALL of the original founding fathers (the ones with their archaic ways of doing things) die off, because that’s what it’s going to take, this won’t change. Unless you see someone like me fund 1000 memberships to overthrow the powers that be.

And before you get your feelings hurt, as a founding father, ask yourself if you’ve done a single innovative thing for cave diving in the last ten years, if you have, then I’m not talking about you.

Actually, the bulk of the NSS-CDS revenue comes from donations specifically from the Annual International Conference.

I'd be floored if any significant amount of their revenue comes from issuing certifications. If they got out of basic training and got divers from all cave agencies to come in that would be a vastly larger pool of divers with membership revenue. As it stands now, I would eat my belt if more than 10% of their new members were from non-CDS instructors. Why? because the instructors themselves have no reason to be part of the CDS.

 

[tbone1004]

Do any of you think the CDS does a poor, dangerous job of training divers to dive in caves? @tbone1004 @rjack321 @rddvet @CptTightPants21 ?

The CDS does not have any instructors officially representing the organization except the Training Director. MANY of their instructors are poor instructors though, and I can think of at least two previous TD's that are poor instructors

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

What I want to know (off-topic) is who puts those handprints and fin prints in the floor of the cave like at the bottom of the breakdown room on the Peanut line?