NSS-CDS Effectiveness

[tmassey]

Grr... Didn't want to contribute to the off-topicness of this... But @rjack321 has private messages turned off.

Me: What are you trained to do?
Them: I have Apprentice
Me: Tell me more about what that included?
Them: I can dive 1/3rds and one navigational decision
Me: Well it's Peacock, do you really think we should dive 1/3rds here?
Them: We did in class
Me: How many people were in your class?
Them: Just me and the instructor
Me: k...

Forgive my ignorance: I'm a *baby* Full Cave diver -- I'm the exact type of diver that would be on the *receiving* end of such questions. But I'm not sure where you're going with the 'it's Peacock' question *or* the 'how many were in your class' questions.

My *guess* is the 'it's Peacock' part is implying the low-flow aspect of Peacock, and therefore the fact that full thirds is not a lot of margin, especially when compared to Ginnie.

But I'm not sure where you're going with the 'how many were in your class'. Removing another layer of safety, where your current buddy is *not* at an instructor level?

 

[kensuf]

Grr... Didn't want to contribute to the off-topicness of this... But @rjack321 has private messages turned off.



Forgive my ignorance: I'm a *baby* Full Cave diver -- I'm the exact type of diver that would be on the *receiving* end of such questions. But I'm not sure where you're going with the 'it's Peacock' question *or* the 'how many were in your class' questions.

My *guess* is the 'it's Peacock' part is implying the low-flow aspect of Peacock, and therefore the fact that full thirds is not a lot of margin, especially when compared to Ginnie.

But I'm not sure where you're going with the 'how many were in your class'. Removing another layer of safety, where your current buddy is *not* at an instructor level?

Two people should not dive thirds, especially in peacock. If one person were to run out of air (for whatever reason) at max penetration, the team would likely not survive.

The rule of thirds was designed for a 3 person team. That way if one diver runs out of air for whatever reason, the two other divers can share the workload to get the diver out. One diver will provide gas for approximately half of the exit, then switch with the other diver that will provide gas for the remainder of the duration.

If you're in a two person team, your options are to take more air (like a safety bottle) part-way in, which isn't really diving to thirds, or be more conservative. Thirds minus 200 for penetration gives you a 600 psi buffer and works better.

 

[kensuf]

Other times when you should not dive thirds:

First time in a new system - you have no idea what to expect, maybe it even turns into a bit of a siphon.

Anytime you're diving a siphon; the gas rules for this become situationally dependent on the strength of the siphon and is one reason you should periodically collect data on your swim speed and sac rate in various different systems in order to calculate what you would really need in a siphon.

Anytime you're diving with someone new for the first time. The person you're diving with may be one of those people that doesn't really abide by the rule of thirds -- when they dive beyond thirds they're breathing YOUR gas!

 

[kensuf]

Y'all were taught these things, right?

 

[rjack321]

Grr... Didn't want to contribute to the off-topicness of this... But @rjack321 has private messages turned off.



Forgive my ignorance: I'm a *baby* Full Cave diver -- I'm the exact type of diver that would be on the *receiving* end of such questions. But I'm not sure where you're going with the 'it's Peacock' question *or* the 'how many were in your class' questions.

My *guess* is the 'it's Peacock' part is implying the low-flow aspect of Peacock, and therefore the fact that full thirds is not a lot of margin, especially when compared to Ginnie.

But I'm not sure where you're going with the 'how many were in your class'. Removing another layer of safety, where your current buddy is *not* at an instructor level?

Sorry to be so subtle

So a student is diving 1/3rds in a barely any flow system with just one other person (their instructor of all people). That is not a good practice AT ALL nevermind in a course where all their habits and "by the book" practices are supposedly being taught.

For the record, I would probably still dive with this person. But since I already know their class and instructor/mentor was dubious there's no point in asking about navigation practices. The next part of my discussion would probably be something like:
"Well I'd love to take some video of the light through the duckweed at pothole (I made up this new objective on the fly to give us an emergency exit)."

Plus, since we are new to each other. So how about we just swim the gold line past pothole to the Nicholson tunnel. We'll turn around at that jump arrow and exit back here at P1?

Thirds really isnt very conservative in a no flow system like this so if we dont make it to the jump by the time we hit 2600 (looking at the tanks here and assuming a 3600psi fill and matched 104s) we'll have plenty of leftover gas to see if I can get good video of you in the sunbeams at pothole."

 

[ginti]

The KUR made a post on Instagram earlier this morning that has 124 likes on it and it is nothing more than a picture of Pitkin on a sidemounted RB-80.

I liked the KUR on Instagram yesterday. I received a welcome message within 24h, and the lady on the other side asked me:
1 - if I wanted more information about the KUR
2 - what I'd like to see on their page
Being just curious, I actually couldn't answer these questions; but she was very kind and seemed really interested in what potential followers are interested in.

I really appreciated her message.

Now I'll shut up.

 

[rjack321]

I guess my point is that people will boast about the cards they have. But with not too many questions that are more like a collaborative dive plan you can sleuth out way more useful training and dive practices information than apprentice vs ApprenticePlus could ever tell you. This really isn't a CDS thing, except that training limits for all the agencies have changed over time and trying to follow them all or complaining that they have evolved is counterproductive and doesnt really help you get to the meat of the matter which is are they following time worn cave diving practices today.

 

[The Chairman]

I liked the KUR on Instagram yesterday. I received a welcome message within 24h, and the lady on the other side asked me:
1 - if I wanted more information about the KUR
2 - what I'd like to see on their page
Being just curious, I actually couldn't answer these questions; but she was very kind and seemed really interested in what potential followers are interested in.

I really appreciated her message.

Now I'll shut up.

Point her to this discussion as well!

 

[The Chairman]

Y'all were taught these things, right?

Depends on when they certed, doesn't it? When I first started, cookies were kinda new and we used only arrows. Boy did I get jumped on when I asked "What you mean, drop cookie?" I've seen many instructors do their thing and very few of them seem to cover the same stuff, much less in the same way. In regards to thirds, I don't remember Sheck's Blueprint for survival mentioning "in low flow add more gas" at all. I didn't encounter that concept until full cave and I had already figured it out by then. Teaching evolves. Not all cavers know the latest "best practices"... not even instructors. It's one of the things that makes SB incredibly valuable to divers.

 

[tbone1004]

Depends on when they certed, doesn't it? When I first started, cookies were kinda new and we used only arrows. Boy did I get jumped on when I asked "What you mean, drop cookie?" I've seen many instructors do their thing and very few of them seem to cover the same stuff, much less in the same way. In regards to thirds, I don't remember Sheck's Blueprint for survival mentioning "in low flow add more gas" at all. I didn't encounter that concept until full cave and I had already figured it out by then. Teaching evolves. Not all cavers know the latest "best practices"... not even instructors. It's one of the things that makes SB incredibly valuable to divers.

and if the CDS actually was smart and got out of training "normal" levels of cave diving, they could be a kind of advisory group for general cave diving standards to all of the agencies as far as best practices go and focus on specialized cave training that the for-profit agencies won't do. The annual conference could be a review of "best practices" and any changes that are coming out, notes about changes of the line, etc. That would encourage ALL cave divers to join, not just those certified by the CDS *which is a huge problem and has been for a long time*. Unfortunately this has been presented to them for at least a decade if not longer, and they want nothing of it.