Opinions from experience please

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I do not think it is very useful to say that larger sensors are better for image quality. Everybody knows that. .
Not everyone knows that, Puffer continually says that small cameras are "better". My advice to the OP was to get a small housing for the flip video, not to buy a DSLR system, which apparently he did.

I am not sure that I would say the IQ of a ZX-1 is 95% that of a Nikon D3 but a lot depends on what you are going to do with the file. If your goal is to put pics on the web, I agree 100%. If your goal is to make 16x20 prints for a gallery, not so much. If a small camera/housing gets you what you want, great just don't (and I know you didn't) try to suggest that a G10/ZX-1/whatever tiny sensor camera will be "better" than a full frame DSLR. I'm just saying.

Dive Often and Safe.
Bill
 
Not everyone knows that, Puffer continually says that small cameras are "better". My advice to the OP was to get a small housing for the flip video, not to buy a DSLR system, which apparently he did.

I am not sure that I would say the IQ of a ZX-1 is 95% that of a Nikon D3 but a lot depends on what you are going to do with the file. If your goal is to put pics on the web, I agree 100%. If your goal is to make 16x20 prints for a gallery, not so much. If a small camera/housing gets you what you want, great just don't (and I know you didn't) try to suggest that a G10/ZX-1/whatever tiny sensor camera will be "better" than a full frame DSLR. I'm just saying.

Dive Often and Safe.
Bill

It's the Olympus XZ-1..........:wink:
 
I cannot agree more and cannot understand why people fight this truth about having the ability to synch at higher speeds the strobes on the P&S cameras. :idk:

I see it all the time during daytime shots that blur that come with synch speeds that are around max 1/160 as on most EVIL cameras

We fight that claim because it's false.

The main reason to use a flash during a daylight shot is as an eyelight, to get that gleam from a model's eyes. That's only valuable if the person is facing you, and that typically means standing still. If you can't get an un-blurred shot of a person standing still at 1/160, one of you needs to lay off the coffee.

For macro shots underwater, you typically want the strobes to provide all the light. That gives you the best colors, otherwise the reds will be a bit washed out. If the strobes are providing all the light, what you care about is the strobe duration, not the shutterspeed. Strobe durations are typically 1/2000 to 1/1000.

The fact is that strobe sync speed is unimportant in the vast majority of cases. For daylight portraits, speeds faster than 1/160 are not needed. For macro strobe shots, shutter speed doesn't matter if the settings are chosen appropriately (low iso and small aperture).
 
We fight that claim because it's false.

The main reason to use a flash during a daylight shot is as an eyelight, to get that gleam from a model's eyes. That's only valuable if the person is facing you, and that typically means standing still. If you can't get an un-blurred shot of a person standing still at 1/160, one of you needs to lay off the coffee.

For macro shots underwater, you typically want the strobes to provide all the light. That gives you the best colors, otherwise the reds will be a bit washed out. If the strobes are providing all the light, what you care about is the strobe duration, not the shutterspeed. Strobe durations are typically 1/2000 to 1/1000.

The fact is that strobe sync speed is unimportant in the vast majority of cases. For daylight portraits, speeds faster than 1/160 are not needed. For macro strobe shots, shutter speed doesn't matter if the settings are chosen appropriately (low iso and small aperture).

I cant believe you use flash in daylight only for getting the model's eyes (well I guess the models sometimes get all the attentions :eyebrow:)

I shoot with strobes 80% of my daylight shots and in the cases when I am close to a quick fish or critter and use a high focal length-- 1/160 is just a hair too limiting. See the attached picture (admittedly one I usually dont keep around ...) where there is enough ambient light and the strobe will not completely override the background or the ambient light on the subject. Look at the dorsal fin. Probably at 1/250th or 1/320 it would have been frozen and no halo would appear. Surely most shots may not need this sync speed but some do and most critters sometimes just do not behave as planned and you miss the shot...

But while the need for synch speed depends on the conditions of the picture being taken (can you stay still in strong currents?) and the jerking movements a fish may have my question is: why would you use a very small aperture that may have diffraction limits and blur when you can use a faster flash sync speed that will surely stop the potential blur and save you flash power?

Your subjects and environments may change and I will not question what and how you shoot but just give me an answer to the question ...

By the way I am not trying to compare a full frame dslr to the xz1 but I am trying to point that the best compacts compared to a prosumer DSLR (APS-C) camera are very very close in quality when doing macro shots while having some distinct advantages (size, cost, larger DOF and... :wink: higher sync speeds).

Cheers
 

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why would you use a very small aperture that may have diffraction limits and blur when you can use a faster flash sync speed that will surely stop the potential blur and save you flash power?

Underwater, the ambient light is blue. If you take a photo with half ambient and half strobe light, your photo will come out too blue. That's fine if that's what you want, but in most cases underwater photos are better with more reds and yellows. To get the most reds and yellows, you want the strobe to overpower the ambient light. Coincidentally, this also freezes the action and makes sync speeds irrelevant.

Also, I think you're overestimating the issue with diffraction limits. For example, the Nikon 60mm AF-D macro lens normally goes to f/32, but if you focus really close you can get much smaller apertures, which let me take this photo at f/57 (and ISO 1600 and 1/60 shutterspeed, although the shutterspeed didn't matter with the flash):


DSC_0031 by davelewinn, on Flickr

f/57 on an APS-C sensor is extreme, but I was still able to get a reasonably detailed photograph. At normal apertures for macro like f/16 or f/22, the diffraction limits would be hard to see. Diffraction limits to sharpness are real, but they're not THAT important.
 
Love your image, spectacular color.

Yes, he posted an image of an older drum, showing how good a DSLR can capture it's moving tail. Only problem is, the tail is partially blurred.. rather showed the problem rather than proving the opposite. The tail motion on that fish is sort of a wave, with part of it still, and the wavy moving. You have to look at the whole tail to see if it was frozen, not one part.

Nervous is not the same as constant fast motion. We have lots of nervous fish, only a few that are fast moving, and the tail of the drum is one of the worst.

But for reasons I don't really understand, DSLR users seem to have to make their camera's better and bigger and more impressive than they really are.

The issue is not that a point and shoot is "better", they might be as good as, but except for a couple of things, are not better. They may not even be more cost effective, as that depends on what your expectations are and what one's goals are.

After one gets by shooting images underwater for fun (which I like to do), I shoot for fairly large prints of comercial quality. For me, my printer ends at 13 x 19, so I don't worry about going any larger. The smallest I do is 11 x 14, so the image has to be fairly sharp.

Using a point and shoot for a crisp 13 x 19 means I have to shoot in a very small window of settings, and the image cannot have any significant cropping. Would a high end DSLR shoot a better image? Yup. If I had the right lens on it, and if I framed it as good, and if it was in focus.

But, if I go buy your average DSLR, and don't have the best lens and try to shoot at F22, then it will not produce a better image:

For the record, there are a lots of sites that show lens testing, but here is one for the very nice Canon L lens.... you can move the f stops around and see what happens to the image...just look at the actual images and see if you think F stops don't degrade the image...try F32 versus say f5.6.

Canon 100mm F2.8 L IS USM Macro Lens Review: 3. Test results (APS-C): Digital Photography Review

I have seen prints from that lens and they are really nice by the way, as long as one stays away from F16 and above.

Back when being a professional meant actually knowing the technology, they made lens with leaf shutters in them to get around the issues with a focal plane shutter. Today, no one seems to know there are any issues.

So just to clear the air:

1. There are different qualities of DSLR's...full frame, high end ones, with really good lens are better than everything else, except for a few medium format sensors and camera. Yes, they are better than any point and shoot by a fair amount

2. Average DSLR's very a great deal in quality, and the quality of the lens put on them. Some are better, some are not better than the best Point and Shoot, but in general, they all are at least as good as (if fairly new).

3. They all focus faster.

4. DOF control is a skill, and anyone that really knows it can control any camera that has some f stops. If you don't really know how, then a DSLR is easier.

5. Taking a DSLR underwater will cost a lot. If you want to do that, and can afford it, enjoy, they can take excellent images.

6. Most of the really good P&S camera's take better High Def video over your really good DSLR.. there are exceptions, but they are not the norm.

7. Good wide angle is the land of the DSLR. If you love to take them, can afford it and want to make large images, it is the only way to go.

8. You like taking snap shots, general interest, and a wide variety of images on one dive, DSLR's are not your friend.

9. Learning to take pictures underwater is a skill that takes time to learn. It is easier to learn in pieces and with small easy to carry equipment. Sometimes simpler is better (at least to start).

I have a standing bet with anyone that uses a DSLR... I will pay for your dive trip and take you out where there are blue dartfish and if you can get a close up image of one in focus that fills the frame, I will be impressed and be happy I paid for the trip, if not, then they get to pay me back for both of us.

Here is the fish:

Blue Goby

Oh, and I have lots of closeups of them, and having a small camera is part of the reason.

Or if you would like to see a better image (given his terrible image, that miss identification is understandable):

goby_1101.JPG


I have seen great images taken with just about every type of camera, and sometimes the operator is more important than the camera.








So the biggest advantage of a point and shoot is its ability to have a higher sync speed than a DSLR to capture fast moving fish. I believe that Bvanant has provided with his image of the Juvenile Drum shot with a DSLR which according to Puffer said would very hard to get a shot of without any blur from a DSLR.

Here is my example of which I believe most people would agree are fast moving skitish fish.
2592506940_df4e7ac412.jpg

Anthias: taken on D80 ISO100, f18,1/80th

Even with a slow shutter speed of 1/80th I was able to capture all four without blur.

To be honest most of my macro work involves critters which are not fast moving and most of the time not moving at all. The issue of capturing fast moving small fish in macro photography would represent a very small percentage. The versatility of the DSLR with its broader range of DOF allows one to be more creative especially shooting subjects using shallow DOF. The ability to change between different lenses like between the 60mm and 100/105mm macro.

regards Mark
 
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Still confused. Which P&S camera shoots better Hi-Def video than the 5DMII? Many of the commercial video guys here in LA shoot 5DMII for TV videos (because they can use really really cool lenses and get really shallow DOF). They even shot a whole episode of House with it. Check out the Canon Video for the new 8-15 lens (Canon: EF8-15mm f/4L FISHEYE USM Sample Movies) with 5DII and 7D and then show us a video shot with any P&S that looks like this. As for DOF control, it is easier to control DOF with a large sensor and I have never seen good DOF control with a P&S (the new xz-1 is supposed to help here with a 1.8 lens).
Again, look at the DXo data. NO small sensor has anywhere near the IQ of any of the larger sensor cameras. Of course lenses make a difference but for most folks we are talking a Tokina 10-17 and the camera makers 60 or 100/105 macro lenses all of which are quite nice optically.

Your blue goby pic is very nice but a long way from a single fish filling the frame, and you still are confusing the strobe speed with the shutter speed that you can sync at. Look at Harold Edgerton's pics of bullets shooting through balloons; they were shot at B not at 1/1000 sec

Bill
 
So, the only DSLR that anyone buys is a 5DMII? You keep missiing the point. The majority of people are not using a 5D...

A GH-2 is also better, but for the majority of the people that are using rebel's, yes, several high end point and shoots are better.

Note: That goes for "most" DSLR's. An LX-5, for example, can zoom, focus and has shutter speed control in video. The new Fuji F550 shoots 1080p, and can shoot standard video up to 340 fps.. can a 5D do that?

On DOF, most underwater images don't show a lot of control of that, but I give up. Say I wanted the front Nudi to be in focus and the back one to be out of focus... obviously there is no way to do that without a DSLR...silly me.

nudi940.JPG


Note: Getting good focus is more difficult underwater.. don't hear many people complaining about having too much.

Note2: Have lots of land pictures with DOF control, just getting tired of posting them.

Flash, understand. However, giving how the current TTL systems are controlled, flash timing has changed. If you like over processed, black water images of everything, yup you can use flash, but if you would like anything approaching a natural looking image, then you have to have a fair amount of natural light in the image.

There is a reason the background in this image is not black, it is called "sun".

chromis_100.JPG



On the blue dartfish... right again. It is really not possible to get that close:

bluegoby7401.JPG


Note: I have ones closer, this one was just easy to get to.

Love the Tokina lens... one of the best and using by less than 2% of the photographers out there...

Techical evaluations always assume a lot of things. The G10's resolution images (actually pictures) do not match it's technical evaluation. Part of that is due to a set of assumptions they use for the calculations. At their best, for example, a G10 versus a 50D, I know of no one that can tell the difference in image quality. The 50D has a huge range where one gets really good images, and the G10 does not, but at their best...different story. Underwater, one can shoot images where it is set at it's best... not so on land.

Note: I use camera's I own, so as I get new stuff I do comparisons... will be getting a new Canon this year and will check again.

A GH-1 versus a LX-5, at their best...is sort of tie...but again, the GH-1 has a larger range of setting that take good images.

G10 versus say a LX-5 or S90, the G10 is better, but a narrower shooting range.

Still confused. Which P&S camera shoots better Hi-Def video than the 5DMII? Many of the commercial video guys here in LA shoot 5DMII for TV videos (because they can use really really cool lenses and get really shallow DOF). They even shot a whole episode of House with it. Check out the Canon Video for the new 8-15 lens (Canon: EF8-15mm f/4L FISHEYE USM Sample Movies) with 5DII and 7D and then show us a video shot with any P&S that looks like this. As for DOF control, it is easier to control DOF with a large sensor and I have never seen good DOF control with a P&S (the new xz-1 is supposed to help here with a 1.8 lens).
Again, look at the DXo data. NO small sensor has anywhere near the IQ of any of the larger sensor cameras. Of course lenses make a difference but for most folks we are talking a Tokina 10-17 and the camera makers 60 or 100/105 macro lenses all of which are quite nice optically.

Your blue goby pic is very nice but a long way from a single fish filling the frame, and you still are confusing the strobe speed with the shutter speed that you can sync at. Look at Harold Edgerton's pics of bullets shooting through balloons; they were shot at B not at 1/1000 sec

Bill
 
We are a bit, talking apples and oranges I guess.

Here is what I was talking about in terms of DOF control.
5491891045_99a6169fed_b.jpg

I have been unable to get this type of picture with any P&S that I have tried but that is probably a lack of skill on my part. I don't know how many UW folk are shooting the Tokina lens; but everyone I know is shooting it.

As for video you said "Most of the really good P&S camera's take better High Def video over your really good DSLR.. there are exceptions, but they are not the norm." I pointed out that the 5DII and 7D take great video then you said "So, the only DSLR that anyone buys is a 5DMII? You keep missiing the point. The majority of people are not using a 5D" I didn't say that but I do think the 5DII is a really good DSLR. That was your quote. If you are talking about a 5 year old rebel with the kit lens you are right.

I really don't understand
"Flash, understand. However, giving how the current TTL systems are controlled, flash timing has changed. If you like over processed, black water images of everything, yup you can use flash, but if you would like anything approaching a natural looking image, then you have to have a fair amount of natural light in the image"
Everyone I know uses strobes underwater. Look at the Nudibranch above, maybe it is black and overprocessed but not to my eyes yet all the light in the pic is from a strobe.

I also don't understand this
"At their best, for example, a G10 versus a 50D, I know of no one that can tell the difference in image quality. The 50D has a huge range where one gets really good images, and the G10 does not, but at their best...different story. Underwater, one can shoot images where it is set at it's best... not so on land."

Everyone that I know (and I have done the experiment) can tell the difference between the G10 and the 50D (shooting the 24-105L) as well as a Phase I on a Hasselblad) shooting in the studio.

In any case the bottom line for me is to use whatever gear that gets you pictures that are "good enough". I really want to take very small, very inexpensive, very light systems traveling and in fact just bought a Sony NEX-5 and a housing. Haven't shot it enough to make a detailed comparison but the IQ just seems a bit lacking and the shutter lag is a bit longer than I would like but maybe it will work out OK.

Lets go take some pics
Bill
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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