PADI Holds The New World's Record for Fastest OW Class

[Goose75]

The graduated licensing system requires students to wait at least eight months, during which the restrictions are in place, during which they are supposed to be getting driving experience before they can challenge the next level and run solo on 400 class highways; even then they have a twelve month restricted period before the are totally let loose. In simpler terms, before there are called drivers they have had to demonstrate their capacity to drive effective and safetly. At least that was the intention of the new system...BTW MTO has added new restrictions as of Sept 05.

In my state I think no class is required if the applicant is 18. I never took a class to get my motocycle permit. Just showed up to take a written test and then had an officer follow me on a two block drive though the neighborhood on a beautiful sunny day.

 

[Storm]

vkalia,

Again you are far more experienced than I so I would not presume to try to compare knowledge or experience, and I do agree that the one scenario of merely adding 5 in pool session would not necessarily make for a better diver, it was merely a compromise type of suggestion.

I'm not saying that every diver should foraske their agency's training plan, but we want a little more. Since the experience we had on our AOW course, I've looked into the various agencies and have decided to try to put together a training regime..one that works within one agency's traiing plan, but is augmented by some self imposed pre-requisites designed to meet our diving goals; and to ensure that we get as much in water experience as we require to get truly comfortable.

If some of the DIs and DMs could look over this plan and PM with their advice as to changes/additions I would greatly appreciate it.

Here's the basic plan.

As we are not able to dive in open warer at this time, weekly pool sessions working on buoyancy and trim, then adding task loaded skill practice sessions. In addition to the pool scuba session, we are also planing bi-weekly swimming workouts to improve our in water strength and comfort. (We've already started the Fitness 4 Divers fitness plan to improve strength, flexibility and endurance) We're committed to the sport and want to become safe and profficient divers.

Attendance in a First Response (First aid ) course. (Next week in fact)

After at least another ten pool sessions (as we cannot hit the open water), attending an upcomming Diver Rescue course. (May/June timeframe)

Once the ice is out and wetsuit season starts (we don't have drysuits nor the training or expereince to use these yet), weekly open water dives with more expereiced divers to gain real world diving experience. In addition as least one "dive day" a month (2 to 3 dives)on our own, on dive sites that are within our skill and comfort level. (To gain confidence in our ability to dive unsupervised)

After this finding an instructor/DM or group of experienced divers to help Judy and I gain expereince with such advanced topics as drift diving, multi-level diving, deep diving, and wreck diving.

For the next year or so, with the exception of the First Aid and Rescue Course, We have no desire to attend another card course. We'd rather learn from in-water experience with the senior divers in our area. Obviously an agency course like Nitrox will be in the plan, just not immedeately.

Next December we plan on going south for a vacation and would like to have our skills and experience be where we can feel comfortable joining in on some blue water dives.

After this, it will depend on where we want to go from there, right now it's too early to tell.

Cheers!

Goose75,
The system I mentioned is the one used here in Ontario and was designed to reduce the number new driver related fatalities on our highways. This plan applies to new adult drivers as well, and has reduced the number of accidents. It might need improvements, but it was a good start.

 

[vkalia]

Storm, I dont understand exactly what problem you are trying to solve here with a revised training program (I have to admit I skipped a lot of posts on this thread... ). Perhaps having a clear problem definition would be good starting point.

Not trying to be a wiseass.

Cheers,
Vandit

 

[nyprrthd]

And i'll argue that marginally greater training means nothing in terms of helping prepare a student when the ***** REALLY hits the fan.

I used to teach martial arts, and while people started getting the mechanics of a particular skill after a day or two, it takes a LOT more training before they are able to perform the same skill in a semi-live situation (ie, full contact/no pads). An additional day or teaching would make no difference either; what the student needs is repeated and long-term practice. After a certain amount of time, it clicks and then it stays with them forever.

Handling underwater problems calmly is related to 2 things: level of comfort underwater and individual ability to handle stress. The latter is innate, and not much you can do about it. Re. th former, additional pool time makes a small difference, but neither gets you anywhere close to being *ready* to deal with it - no more than practising a lock for 2 days, instead of 1, makes you ready to apply it in a real fight.

I'm a water baby - been swimming since Iwas 4, used to be a competitive swimmer, could skin dive down to 100', have swum a 50m pool with my hands and feet tied behind my back, can still swim 5k without too much trouble. One time, I was seriously in trouble inside a wreck that I had dived 30-odd times already, and sure that I was going to die. Despite having 800-odd dives at the time, it took a *lot* of willpower to stop myself from going into blind panic, and to work on finding a solution instead. Moral of the story - if 800 dives and absolutely no nervousness in the water *barely* proved enough, what do you think a few additional pool sessions will accomplish?

So let's come back to earth a little bit here, and not assume that a few extra sessions will make us all capable of diving the Dorea. It doesnt work like that.

It is amazing that you hear people forever moaning about diver training standards, and then you realize that an average diver only dives 5 times a year or something like that. Yeah, additional training is going to make a huge difference in these cases.

For the vast majority of the diving population, a *properly-taught* OW course and regular diving is all that is needed to build and improve dive skills.

Vandit

To expand on a good point here: It all comes down to muscle memory, or doing something so many times (correctly) that you no longer need to think about it. That can only come with time and experience. However, a martial arts student won't greatly improve his skills if he's a brown belt and spars with green belts. He needs to work with black belts to raise his level of expertise. If it's a diving "community" it's up to everyone to raise the skill level of their "neighbors."

 

[Scuba_Steve]

It is amazing that you hear people forever moaning about diver training standards, and then you realize that an average diver only dives 5 times a year or something like that. Yeah, additional training is going to make a huge difference in these cases.

I'm thinking one way you're helping to push the knife in their chest, they other you're trying to get them to hold off long enough to realize it might hurt.

There's little arguement that yes most divers are <20 dive a year flailers, and yes they're generally the ones biting it, but even still I feel we should err on the side of caution here.

Maybe there's been too many dead people the last few years where we live. My opinion was they died needlessly and it was avoidable.

 

[ReneeC]

While I am not a real fan of quick classes ....
I recently was on a Royal Caribbean that offered this class and I got up bright and early out of curiousity and watched the pool session.

Hopefully this was not the exception - the students were motivated, attentive and knowledgeable and the instructor was very competant, patient and thorough. The pool skills were drilled until perfect and I was impressed.

Later in the day I talked with the students and they were hard at work restudying the materials. Basically they took the cruise for the course and were devoting their entire week to it. I've seen far worse in traditional classroom settings.

 

[Storm]

Storm, I dont understand exactly what problem you are trying to solve here with a revised training program (I have to admit I skipped a lot of posts on this thread... ). Perhaps having a clear problem definition would be good starting point.

Not trying to be a wiseass.

Cheers,
Vandit

I understand, and thanks. The problem I am trying to solve is simple. The agency we started out with, allows students to fasttrack straight from OW to AOW with no pre-requisite experience dives in between. We did this, and the results were not great. It caused me to take a long look at how this agency sets up its training program, and frankly, this has shaken my confidence in their training plan.

While I am not a very experienced diver, part of what I do or a living is designing training plans and courseware. I looked at the methodology, and noticed that there are crack in the training plan that allow for divers to move very quickly from one course to another without any genuine metric in place to ensure proficiency.

Given the nature of diving, and the inherent risks associated to the sport, I feel that the existing training plans, and certification models, are not conducive to building a well-rounded diver. Frankly, they just don’t go far enough in their skills development, and with the lack of minimum logged dive pre-requisites, for each and every new course, they are geared toward self promotion, and not solely focused on student development.

I may be wrong, but that is just how I feel. I want more out of my training plan than plastic cards. I want genuine progressive skills development (that means task loading not just task introduction), combined with practical experience, and sound training principles. Their plans are chopped up into financially appealing chunks. Unfortunately, with the lack of mandatory pre-requisites you get students, like my self, with an AOW card with only 10 educational dives under their belt. If I were an experienced diver, I would not want to have someone with my limited experience joining him or her on that next 100-foot dive.

Of course, now, my wife and I are limiting ourselves to our experience level. Hindsight is a great educator. However, when I went looking for a training plan that will help us become proficient and safe divers, I did not find one that addressed our personal goals, and needs. So I decided to try and put together a plan that both incorporates the best of the agency plans augmented, by self imposed pre-requisite experience dives, and mentoring with more experienced divers. I’m, not trying to usurp the agency way, it just did not work for us, and I now do not have sufficient confidence in their system to trust them further. I trust the skills and abilities of my Dive Instructors, and Dive Masters. However, I would rather work with them outside of the minimum requirements, and work together to develop my wife’s and my skills beyond just the minimum. It's a personal thing.

 

[vkalia]

I was going to address your post on a point by point basis and then I realized that I really dont have the energy to have the same discussion every week (no offence to you... it seems I've been having this discussion for almost half a decade now, first on rec.scuba and now here).

I'll point out a few things:

- the fact that the results were not good for you does not mean it is a fault of the "fast-tracking process", nor does it make it indicative of the general diving populace as a whole?

- "fast tracking" by itself is a misnomer. It is just more training. It isnt as if people get an award for finishing all their dive training. More training = better skills. On one hand, people kvetch about the OW being too short. Then if the diver continues his training right afterwards, they say "no, you should wait between training". What am I missing here? Forget labels, forget the "Advanced" word... it is training and is a good thing. If you feel it wasnt adequate, get a few more dives in with someone who has the experience. There are lots of people who *do* find 9-10 dives in a row with an instructor to be more than adequate at instilling sound diving fundamentals.

- why this preoccupation with "proficiency"? As pointed out above, training isnt a competitive event, where one needs to put in checks and controls to ensure people arent getting ahead of themselves. As long as divers are comfortable in the water and know how to dive safely (which they should be right after a properly taught OW), there is no need for "proficiency" in order to gain more skills.

- Your main point is that the certification program should churn out well-rounded divers. I disagree. I think becoming a well-rounded diver takes a *long* time (atleast what *I* would consider a well-rounded diver). The certification program should churn out divers who understand the basics, and are then able to refine their skills on an ongoing basis. People that seem to think that a few extra hours in a classroom are a short-cut to experience are the ones who are actually in denial.

- What great task loading skills do you expect to get with a few more hours in the water? How much training will you need in order to handle being OOA at 30m and far away from your buddy? Will a few extra sessions help you there?

I agree that the requirements for being an AOW are not very high - but the point everyone seems to miss is that they dont *need* to be.

Anyway, this is getting a bit pointless. Everybody seems to have various opinions on how to "fix" diving based on their own experience and it gets a bit tedious, to be honest.

Vandit

 

[chrispete]

I agree that your cert level does not necessary reflect your abilities...but it should...especially if your cert level will get you on a boat that is going to dive outside of your limits.

I have to wholeheartedly disagree on this point. You and only you are responsible for keeping your dives in sync with your experience level. Period. End of discussion.

There is no consistent correlation between number of dives and the experience level of the diver. I could have 500 dives over 20 years, all in the warmest water you can imagine with not a single whiff of current and a max depth of 10 1/2 feet and collected a couple of dozen cards or 500 dives in cold turbid water with a basic open water cert and under a system that worships plastic the more experienced diver would be denied access to a dive boat because he doesn't have a "Warm Water Shallow Profile - Saltwater" certification in his wallet.

 

[PAdiver93]

Ok, I know you're joking, but just to be clear to the newer people out there that aren't familiar with the NAUI program, this is not reality.

Yes I was, but to be honest - it still depends on the person who is being trained, not the program... Our President graduated from Yale - does that mean that Yale is a bad school???