PADI Holds The New World's Record for Fastest OW Class

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Storm:
I agree that your cert level does not necessary reflect your abilities...but it should...especially if your cert level will get you on a boat that is going to dive outside of your limits.

What you are equating this to would be similar to a rookie car driver getting a license, through nothing more than paying a fee, to drive a heavy transport. It is all fine to say the driver should not drive that rig, but then why let them buy their way to the license t begin with; a recipe for disaster.

If many charter boats require an AOW to board, one can assume that they expect their divers to BE advanced divers (i.e. experienced divers). That is why I think that having a set number of pre-requisite logged dives before allowing student to progress to AOW, and them making the AOW an actual learning endeavor, (not guided tours) would only benefit the diving students and the diving industry.


AlexMDiver,

Different people do learn at different rates, but text book learning and real life experienced are two very different things. I know the theory and aced every AOW review. In fact I held the highest score for both classes...big deal. It amounts to nothing more than developed memorization skills...not developed diving skills.

BTW the OW to AOW is not a progressive training flow. Progressive training builds on skills learned by adding new knowledge and taks loading existing skills. A progressive training example would be to take the basic safety skills that you learned in OW kneeling on the bottom, then re-visit these skills while horizontally hovering three feet off the bottom, or practice an assisted assent neither with diver wearing a mask. These build knowledge, experience and confidence. That is progressive training.

The AOW is not really an educational course...more of a introduction to five "specialty dives" via guided tours. (I'd like to know how peak buoyancy and trim can be called "specialty” skills...sort of basic requirement IMO, but we can come back to that one later.)

All I am saying is that if the AOW cert is the "key to the boat” then it should be an actual skill course, not an intro to different diving that will be taught in other courses.

Also, Gringo, I am not bored with my diving...just dry-docked till the ice is out...
Although I am doing weekly skills practice sessions in the pool.
Storm,
Was away a few days, just catching up on this thread.
I agree with your thoughts on the AOW. I noticed the 'preview to other specialties' feel when I took the course myself years ago. I thought: ok, when are we starting with the advanced bits...

An interesting concept this AOW course:
What do most people define as advanced (I remember a good thread on this on this board).
i.e. by definition 'advanced' is only one tiny step beyond being 'basic'. Therein lies a problem. Usually divers with much higher skill are classed by many divers and dive operations as 'advanced', such as 'we are doing a morning wreck dive, advanced divers only!'. I suppose most AOW divers probably shouldn't be on dives classed as 'advanced dives', at least not if they do not want to increase their chance of injury...
When many divers complete the 'advanced OW' they assume that they are very good and advanced divers. Many divers are just one tiny step ahead of a very basic diver....however, some really are excellent divers. The spread of skill levels of divers coming out of these two courses is astounding. Some in fact do take to skills instantly. In my experience, the divers that are really dangerous to themselves and others after OW are still dangerous after Rescue and MSD and 100 dives or more....
They think they are very well trained and have no clue of their actual limits. If most divers knew their personal limits, everything would be a lot safer.

My worry is the introduction of several certs below OWD. Now there are divers that are a few steps below basic....of course constant uw supervision of these divers is a must (I truly hope that this always happens...). Instructors should never sacrifice the safety or quality of the training in favour of fulfilling the 'dive today' demand.

The cert. agencies have to take care to resist the lure of a one-day do-it-while-you-are-sipping-pina-colada-and-are-on-vacation course as a main market.
I can not deny that GUEs philosophy and DIR diving and training education makes a lot of sense to me. Is it for everyone? Probably not. Maybe soon. I hope I am not opening a DIR can of worms on this thread.

AMD
 
EEK! i personally find doing the OW coarse this fast hard to believe, i think it is a possibility, but i dont want to mess things up by rushing stuff. Some people will maybe want to get on with it, or are that "clever" they can take it all in, in this amount of time.

At the moment i am doing a BSAC OW coarse, with one practical on tuesday night, and a theory on friday night, over the course of 2 months i think. So could this be better? - more time to work and take it all in, or because of all the time it is easy to forget?

I would find it too hard to do it in the amount of time of 1.5 days, i wouldn't feel capable or safe enough.
 
PADI OW Cert in 4 Hours?

I was eavesdropping on a conversation a couple of guys at the quarry were having the other day and I overheard them talking about how great it was that they were able to get their certs done in one day. I walked over and struck up some conversation. It seems there is a PADI shop in the Washington DC area that allowed these guys to walk in off the street, read the book, take the exam right then and there, then went to one of their houses (the guy had an indoor pool at his house,) and spent about three hours with them. Gave them a temporary C-Card and out the door they went. No OW dives at all. Next thing you know they're at the quarry. Now I'm SSI certified... so I have to ask... is this the standard for PADI? Unbelievable if it is.
 
SharkRider:
PADI OW Cert in 4 Hours?

I was eavesdropping on a conversation a couple of guys at the quarry were having the other day and I overheard them talking about how great it was that they were able to get their certs done in one day. I walked over and struck up some conversation. It seems there is a PADI shop in the Washington DC area that allowed these guys to walk in off the street, read the book, take the exam right then and there, then went to one of their houses (the guy had an indoor pool at his house,) and spent about three hours with them. Gave them a temporary C-Card and out the door they went. No OW dives at all. Next thing you know they're at the quarry. Now I'm SSI certified... so I have to ask... is this the standard for PADI? Unbelievable if it is.

It DEFINITELY is not a standard for PADI, or any agency. That instructor should be reported, and have his instructor certification revoked permanently.
 
SharkRider:
Gave them a temporary C-Card and out the door they went. No OW dives at all. Next thing you know they're at the quarry. Now I'm SSI certified... so I have to ask... is this the standard for PADI? Unbelievable if it is.
Actually, I reckon they where BS'ing you. I find it too hard to believe that any instructor from any agency would do anything that stupid and so far against standards.
 
Back when I first posted, my concerns were that (agencies aside) the standards appeared to be set on determined minimums and those minimums were also tailored to get divers in the water fast where they could then further develop their skills through experience and mentoring.(and yes, paying for more courses)

Almost everyone I talked to, from a wide variety of agencies said the same thing. "after you OW, get in the water and dive. Get to know more experienced divers and learn from them". Several of the diver's (some of whom are in the instructional side of the indusrty) I talked to mentioned refining buoyancy and trim in this manner.

I agree that continuous learning is necessary, and I support that, but when I realized that the training for some of the fundamental skills, that many seem to think make a proficient diver, were being off laid onto the local "experienced" divers, the flags started going up.

I started to ask, ""Should not these fundamental skills not be taught before a rookie like me is set loose on the local divers (and equally more import sesnitive dive sites like wrecks and coral reefs?" The logical answer, to me, was "Yes".

I am not calling the skills and motives of the DI's and DM's into question, they are bound by the agency standards. From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, but a DI may elect to teach students beyond the minimums, but their hands are tied when it comes to testing, as they must follow the minimum standards passed down from their agency.

Hypothetically, if the standard for a pass on an exam is 65%, and an instructor demands 80% to pass before he signs off on the exam, if the student complained to the agency, could the instructor not be called onto the carpet for not following standards even though they have the best interest of their student's at heart?

This is where the claim that it's the instructor and not the agency, that makes a difference can be called into questioned. I admit that the chances of this happening are remote, but as it could happen, would the average instructor take the risk (and we are talking about the average here. the exceptional is not the norm and that is why there were standard developed to begin with)

This is why I question whether or not the agencies should take a look at their standards, take into account the attitudes and expeience that appears to be prevalent in the dive community, and perhaps modify their minimums to include the some of the "learn from the community" skills like buoyancy competence, and proper trim, etc in the OW or as part of pool sessions and check out dives pre AOW dives.

The dichotomy here is that most agencies try to sell some of these subjects as specialties, when in fact they are fundamentals. Addingn the one extra day of open water dives (2), and a few pool sessions to the OW to include the peak perfromance bouyancy would not drive new divers away in drones, and would help inprove the competency of the OW diver: but it would mean one less adiditon course, and thus less teaching dollar income.

One point I would like to make to the DI's who seem to be pushing party line here. My wife and I represent a small sample of your target audience. Many of the other divers who expressed their opinions here are also part of that same target audience. I put forward, that perhaps its time for all agencies to go back to the target audience, and see if the OW and AOW courses are meeting their expectations. Afterall WE represent the agencies' next training dollar. If the consensus is that the target audience's expecations, as far as teh OW and AOW are not being met, than improvements to the minimum standards may be in order.

Peace

Storm
 
Atticus:
Mike - you make some very good points about comfort/ability in the water vs. skill demonstration. How would you suggest an agency word their standards such that an instructor following that agencies rules would "have to" produce better divers? I think a lot of recreational instructors believe they are following their agencies standards and feel they are wrong if they require more (specifically I'm referring to some of the PADI threads discussing instructor reprimands for not granting certification despite a student having done the required skill demonstrations). Please don't take this as a PADI bash - that is simply the most direct example I could think of.

There are a couple of parts to my answer to this. First off, you're right, in that once a student meets the agencies requirements they should recieve the agencies certification. Anything else is misleading. So first lets just address teaching to the existing standards because that's what an instructor has to work with. My discussion is based on PADI standards bcause I'm familiar with them and not because I want to single them out. Lets take some specific skills to illustrate. A student is required to swim 10 meters neutral in CW 3 and hover for 30 seconds in CW 4. These are the stated preformance requirements so you can head for OW with students only having been off the bottom for about a minute and a half. In OW they are required to hover in dive 4 but there's no time limit so it amounts to having to get off the bottom at some time during dive 4. There's nothing in the standards preventing the practice of neutral buoyancy. In fact, the standards encourage time for fun and practice. Since diving is about 99% swimming around neutral, do youthink it might be of use to spend more than a minute and a half off the bottom during open water training? Since CW is for learning the skills and OW is for gaining experience, does it make sense to require students to be diving at all times during the OW dives? Just as an example, take a look at the IANTD skill evaluation form. Basic dive skills...bc, finning technique, buddy skills ect are to be assessed on every dive in every class.

Now lets look at how classes are sometimes taught. A few hours in the pool doing skills while kneeling and 4 open water dives where the dives only need be 20 minutes long and most of that time is often spent doing skills kneeling or kneeling waiting your turn to do skills. When does the student dive? Not every one teaches that way but the shops who certify the most divers do. I know because I've watched them do it.

Standards don't prevent you from practicing mask removal and hovering at the same time or practicing neutral swimming only using your fins for locomotion and maintaining a horizontal position. Why not require it? It could get much better without adding a single skill.

I used to think that PADI expected instructors to know this stuff and just do it. However, take a look at other aspects of the standards. You can conduct OW dive 1 right after CW dive 1. You can't require students to "dive" on dive 1 because they don't start learning to get neutral until CW 3 and you can't move skills between modules. PADI demonstratably does not intend for students to be able to swim neutrally buoyant on dive 1. What they do intend is that the OW course meshes with the experience programs so students can be given OW course credit. Marketing.

ok, so there you have topics and skills that are currently included in the class but students aren't actually required to demonstrate them to any meaningful level of proficiency.

Lets look at gas management. What the text lacks is self explainatory. Trim? Totally absent. The fact is that if you explain the mechanics of trim including how equipment and body position are used to control it they don't have all that much trouble doing it. Give them some time in CW putting it togetther and everything else goes much easier and by the time they're in OW they're really diving. On the other hand I'd argue that without understanding the mechanics they can't really ever learn to dive no matter how many other classes they take. That's why we see AOW students sitting in the mud tieing knots for their S&R dive. What does that prove? How about buddy skills. Sure they share air a couple of times but can they stay together during a free descent or ascent? Can they keep track of a buddy while they clear their mask midwater? Are these things they may have to do on their very first dive after certification? Why don't we make sure they can do it before we certify them? Are the lack of these skills real world problems on real dives? How often do we see or hear of divers being seperated during ascents and descents? I think we should expect it because they weren't ever taught the skills they need to avoid it. They don't get it in any other class either.

If I were going to design an OW class there isn't anything in the PADI standards that I would keep. I know the text is well organized and has pretty pictures and that the standards are well organized and easy to follow. The content is just so screwed up that I don't see the point. I was a PADI instructor and by the time I put a class together that I thought worked pretty well I was only using PADI materials to make sure I was still legal. I had to re-learn everything they taught me about diving or teaching. Again, I was a PADI instructor so I use them as an example but I don't see where any of the other agencies are very different. We start out assuming it's correct because it's all weve seen, I think. I know I did but fighting the same problems over and over finally got me to let go of some of my assumptions. Once I did that, the fix for some of those problems became obvious.

We could also look at some individual skills and what's fundimentally wrong with the way they're taught but maybe I'll save that for another time.
 
MikeFerrara:
My discussion is based on PADI standards bcause I'm familiar with them and not because I want to single them out.

C'mon Mike. When was the last time you posted without singling out and slamming PADI?
 
Atticus:
Web Monkey,
So let me ask you - what don't you like about this dive plan? How is my partner breathing my emergency gas if my turn pressure remains fixed (at 1000 psi or 3rds or whatever)? How is this going to "kill someone"? How do you view this as being different/similar to the case where mr good rmv donates to mr bad rmv at the start of a dive?

I don't have the energy to go through the whole thing again, however the quick version is: there were two divers (inst. and hoover), both on AL 80's, with the hoover sucking down the instuctor's air before using his own, leaving the instructor without enough air to handle an emergency with the hoover at a later time.

If the instructor is starting out with a lot more air than the hoover, then there may be less risk of OOA, depending on how much of the instructor's air the hoover sucks.

Also, I didn't say that sharing air for additional sightseeing time will result in certain death, I said it increases the risk because there is less air left for actual emergencies.

Terry
 
Web Monkey:
I don't have the energy to go through the whole thing again, however the quick version is: there were two divers (inst. and hoover), both on AL 80's, with the hoover sucking down the instuctor's air before using his own, leaving the instructor without enough air to handle an emergency with the hoover at a later time.

If the instructor is starting out with a lot more air than the hoover, then there may be less risk of OOA, depending on how much of the instructor's air the hoover sucks.

Also, I didn't say that sharing air for additional sightseeing time will result in certain death, I said it increases the risk because there is less air left for actual emergencies.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. You and I actually agree.... miracle of miracles.

You are, in effect, saying that sharing air, when combined with inadequate gas management, can cause problems. No arguments there.

My disagreement stemmed from the fact that you assume that sharing air to prolong a dive automatically results in inadequate air to manage dive emergencies. Not so. The solution is to share air at an earlier stage, and to end the dive with everybody still having enough air in their tank to ascend and do his safety stop on his own tank. It requires a little bit more planning and situational awareness to pull off, but is more than doable.

Vandit
 
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