PADI Open Water Knowledge Reviews

[latitude]

I didnt buy the padi ow book, I bought the CD-rom. Its a lot better cause the videos are in there and you can do the knowledge reviews and print them out. Best of all, I bought 1 copy and all my buddys copied it on their computer and they each have a copy.

Cool and I just downloaded 3 albums off the internet!!! :14:


I'm just kidding RIAA!! Really!!

 

[PRL]

I think that PADI is starting to require the originals is because both the OW cd and instructor guide(which contains the KR and the answers and also the answer sheet to the tests and quizes) can be found illegaly on any Peer to peer server like e-mule or similar.
I havent heard yet about the requirement but think its a good idea. I also would like to see a few instructors (not all, some are great) take extra steps to ensure that students truly have the knowlege not just the answers.

 

[Xizang]

My two pesos:

Included in the price of all courses I teach are the training materials. I give them the choice of the book or CD-Rom wherever applicable. I ship each student their study materials in advance if possible...so each student gets their own copy of the books.

I do not think it is unreasonable for PADI (or any other agency) to require each student to have their own materials. As the argument has already been made, they paid to publish and produce the materials, so they should be paid for same. However, if the student wants to use copies rather than marking up their book, I think that should be their option if they have paid for the materials.

yeah instructors should just offer a package price for the course which includes the manual. Kinda like buying a TV for a price and it includes an instructional manual. People don't go to a department store and tell the clerk "I'd like to buy that TV but can I not take the manual? can you just subrtract the cost of the manual, coz my neighbor has the same TV and I'll just borrow his manual". But I guess it will take a long time to establish this as it is already common practice to take the cost of the manual from the course cost.

PADI never denies that its about money. PADI is a profit organization that is marketing driven, they invest in advertising, research and development of materials to build brand equity and to provide consumers value for their money and it has paid off, they are the number 1 Scuba certifying agency in the world. People rant about PADI this PADI that, but at the end of the day people still enroll in PADI courses.

 

[Scuby Dooby]

Using the book that your sister's friends boyfriend used two years ago means one of you no longer has the book as a reference, the way that PADI has set the program up means that each student is forced to purchase not just the exam, but also the reference. In the long run, that's a good thing for the students, even if it means that a few more trees must die.

I'm sorry but this is just laughable - my son and daughter and I need 3 copies of the OW manual in our home to be safe? I'll let the trees live thanks.

:05:

I know a few times I got my schedule, went to the bookstore to buy a particular book and found only new textbooks... Upon further examintion the reason there were no used books was because the required text was a new edition- first use that particular semester... Then, I'll take a look at the author- what do you know, the professor of that very class I was taking!!! They got me that time!

Yup, they did! But i'll bet no one told you that if you didn't buy and submit the original suplemental worksheets for the course that you wouldn't receive the credits did they?

I don't think that's the reason they're making you buy the book. They're making you buy the book because they (and the dive schools) want to make the money off the sale. There's no debate about that . . .

But the issue that it is not safe for certified divers not to have their own copy of the book has been a main point made by sevreral of the posters on this thread, i agree, the point is cr*p!

And you'd be breaking the law if you did... Sorry to say, but in this case, you gotta pay if you want to play... (or look into a different agency)

No I don't, for 1 of my PADI courses (AOW) I borrowed the book from a friend and wrote my answers to the review on a word processor because I didn't think the manual was worth buying. My dive shop had no problem with this. I also let my son use my book for open water (and we share 1 set of dive tables too ) with the same arrangement for the knowledge reviews. My dive shop had no problem with this.

I'm not trying to debate whether forcing you to buy a book is a good/bad/ethical business decision... I think it sucks too. But in this case PADI's got ya. The original poster asked for copies of the knowledge review- Giving/selling/sharing them with him would be unethical and illegal. As bad as it sucks I'll fork over the $30 and walk away with 6 less airfills and a clear conscience...

I don't think they've got me - I've completed through Rescue and won't be taking any more PADI courses, my son probably will - with my manuals I'm sure. My conscience is clear on this issue, believe me, i sleep well at night . I would love to see someone try to have me arrested / sued for copyright infringement for the above scenario. I agree that if some of us were to pass copied sheets onto hamunamuna nuka nika . . . (whew, what a name ) that we probably would be opening ourselves up to trouble. My scenario is very different though.

The main (but debatable i guess) ethical issue I see here is PADI's practice of requiring 'original' knowledge review sheets to pass the course. I was really surprised to read about this practice here because it just doesn't play out where i am living and doing my diving.

Also to matt, you had an interesting link on copyrights, you might want to go back though and read the content on 'Fair Use' and the four general tests to determine it - i think a strong argument could be made on family members sharing copies of dive manuals. http://www.starr.net/is/**.html (*note. scubaboard filter put the ** in the link - the 2 letters should read, consecutively, f u , in order to find a chart on fair use and copyright).

Again, guys, I have no problem with PADI on the whole, i've received good instruction and prompt service, etc. But I don't see my sharing manuals with my son as a copyright infringement in any way - better call the FBI (maybe interpol is more appropriate for me, seeing my current residence ) because I'm not likely to change my mind on this one just because PADI says it is so!

 

[Xizang]

When PADI starts selling the PIC certification envelope as part of the manuals (meaning intructors and diveshops cannot sell the PIC envelope separately) or adapt the hologram sticker format on the Instructor Candidate Workbook, then everyone will buy and own manuals because their instructors will have no way of submitting their application without it. I wonder why PADI has not done this yet.

 

[Scuby Dooby]

Axua,

You know that this is a very common practice in the philippines, i'm sure you know the shop and instructors I dive with in manila too (but of course i won't mention names here ).

I think the most compelling issue 'against me' actually the safety one - we both know that there are lots of shops (especially those oriented toward tourists) who have a copy of the book that they let the student take away at night - knowing full well that most students probably don't even look at it and instead go out and have a few beers before coming back the next morning and being spoonfed the review answers. Do this for 3 days and, voila, you have a C card. If the agencies are concerned about safety they ought to look into the structure and provision of their resort courses - now that is an area that is truly lacking (i'm sure its not only a PADI issue though).

Interesting point about bundling the PIC envelope with the manual, tougher one to get around. Maybe it's because the PIC is also used for replacement cards? I hope for my sake that they don't push this one through!

 

[PRL]

I just read the 4th quater news letter.
As I understand it, an instructor or a student has no authorization to photocopy blank knowledge reviews, however a student can photocopy completed and signed knowledge reviews, turn the photocopies in to the instructor, and keep the originals for further referance.
As I understand it, in order to complete the OW course every student has to have their own original knowledge reviews if they opt for the book version.

 

[Hoosier]

Absolutely, if then, why is it only for paper version? CD-Rom version doesn't care about the duplicated copy. PADI's main concern is whether or not each individual buys the materials. That's it. I also handed in all knowledge review in the form of the photocopy one, not original one after OW. Sorry.. so I don't have OW reviews...:05:

I just read the 4th quater news letter.
As I understand it, an instructor or a student has no authorization to photocopy blank knowledge reviews, however a student can photocopy completed and signed knowledge reviews, turn the photocopies in to the instructor, and keep the originals for further referance.
As I understand it, in order to complete the OW course every student has to have their own original knowledge reviews if they opt for the book version.

 

[Xizang]

Axua,

You know that this is a very common practice in the philippines, i'm sure you know the shop and instructors I dive with in manila too (but of course i won't mention names here ).

I think the most compelling issue 'against me' actually the safety one - we both know that there are lots of shops (especially those oriented toward tourists) who have a copy of the book that they let the student take away at night - knowing full well that most students probably don't even look at it and instead go out and have a few beers before coming back the next morning and being spoonfed the review answers. Do this for 3 days and, voila, you have a C card. If the agencies are concerned about safety they ought to look into the structure and provision of their resort courses - now that is an area that is truly lacking (i'm sure its not only a PADI issue though).

Interesting point about bundling the PIC envelope with the manual, tougher one to get around. Maybe it's because the PIC is also used for replacement cards? I hope for my sake that they don't push this one through!

agree with you regarding safety and ownership of manual and yes it is quite a common practice here. I know that PADI is seriously thinking of the PIC and manual combo (For replacement cards, they could just design a separate envelope just for that purpose and that one can be sold separately), because I believe this year they had 20,000 certifications but sold only 2,000 manuals.

 

[PRL]

Absolutely, if then, why is it only for paper version? CD-Rom version doesn't care about the duplicated copy. PADI's main concern is whether or not each individual buys the materials. That's it. I also handed in all knowledge review in the form of the photocopy one, not original one after OW. Sorry.. so I don't have OW reviews...:05:

I think that the issue is not copyright but the legal aspect of education. PADI is trying (or is forced) to make it harder for students to just copy the answers. The hope here might be since they have the book they might look at it once in a while. CD version forces students to look through the whole module and answer study questions before the Knowledge review can be attempted.
It might be some sort of Education Board Review. Or maby PADI got tired of having a bad rep for having some of their certified divers qlueless about diving theory.

(I'm not knocking PADI for their standards. I believe that statisticly PADI has no more or less bad vs good divers. But I had to throw this sentance in because to some it might seem that the last sentance is directed against PADI standards)