PADI SSI and equipment tie ins

[kelly7552]

From all my SSI and PADI training, I was struck by the 'Sell in' connection between the certification agencies and the Local Dive Shop. Inevitably, we'd get around to required equipment, and within the constructs of the course would be heavy marketing of the local dive shops equipment and the requirement to get some of this equipment.

What is stocked in the LDS? Generally High end Scubapro, with all the instructors using the latest scubapro stuff. I started purchasing at LeisurePro in 2005 and generally read people talking crap about them for years on this board. As I've matured as a diver I see a new approach which is an open design backplate, Hogarthian harness, wing from many sources all which work together and can be pieced together and actually work and have superior flexability and way lower cost than the list price high end scubapro BCD. What do I see in my local dive shops? A single High End fully assembled wing under the heading 'tech diver' (OOOH STAY AWAY!).

I'm wondering in the land of LeisurePro, Scuba.com, DiveGearExpress.com, etc. will there be a certifying agency that will focus on training skills and not seem to be an LDS Advertisement? What I know know is that gear that got me to 100 dives was not the gear that I want to keep diving with. I have no need to be upright at the surface in my large BCD when I climb up to a dive boat a wing works just fine, just like the snorkel is too damned confusing if I'm not shore diving.

What would be really cool would be to have a certifying agency encourage students to buy appropriate equipment, and avoid buying equipment that they may regret later; or at least know that their diving styles might change. Wouldn't it be refreshing to have PADI say that it takes 25-50 open water dives to get more and more comfortable with diving and most of the requirements are here to support new divers? Designs like BCD's that hold you upright at the surface are specifically designed for new divers ... In my case, buying a regulator, was a good idea, but I'm not sure buying an air-integrated computer was a good idea. Buying a BC was probably not a good idea I would have been better off renting it or realizing that it was a short term investment.

I REALLY feel like their is too much equipment tie in with the PADI and SSI courses I've taken and while I received good information, but for me, it's like their credibility decreases when we spend time on discussing equipment requirements (by the way this equipment we are mentioning is available at your local dive shop!) In my perfect world, training would be done by associations of divers (like a dive club), and Dive Shops would exist to sell gear.

 

[toddthecat]

In my perfect world, training would be done by associations of divers (like a dive club), and Dive Shops would exist to sell gear.

Then anyone could get certified with a total lack of standards. One dive club might teach really well, the other might not teach worth crap.

It sounds like you're upset because when you did training you had to purchase some gear?

---------- Post added August 6th, 2013 at 01:04 PM ----------

What I know know is that gear that got me to 100 dives was not the gear that I want to keep diving with. I have no need to be upright at the surface in my large BCD when I climb up to a dive boat a wing works just fine, just like the snorkel is too damned confusing if I'm not shore diving.

Cool. You figured out what works for you. How are dive shops supposed to know what works for each individual when they're new? It takes time, practice, and experience to develop a sense of what your preferences are for gear. Shops can't magically know. Can't help you with the whole "snorkels are confusing" thing. Sounds like a personal preference!!!

 

[Steve_C]

Certifying agencies make their money from the shops/instructors selling courses and course materials.

The LDS shops make their money from selling equipment and to some extent courses.

Your local dive club would last until the first incident at which time everyone involved would loose their shirt and pants since they could not prove they were qualified to do the teaching and that they met accepted standards.

Except for SSI there are independent instructors who teach independent of a shop if that is the way you want to go.

I live in an area where I can dive locally in a quarry or at the ocean two hours away. Having my own full set of equipment including tanks enabled me to do a lot more diving early on. I did not have to go rent gear every time a buddy said lets go dive this afternoon. Personally I am glad that my instructor/LDS gentally encouraged me to buy a full set of gear. And no it was not scubapro. It was Aeris mid range stuff and it has lasted well for several hundred dives.

 

[toddthecat]

And no it was not scubapro. It was Aeris mid range stuff and it has lasted well for several hundred dives.

Gear can last a loooooong time if you take good care of it. Brand doesn't matter if you treat your gear like crap. I can trash the most expensive 1st stage regulator just as fast as I could the cheapest first stage if I take a hose to it to "clean it out" or dunk it in a saltwater bath.

You also reminded me of something else. This post also sounds like an 'angry-at-Scubapro' thing. I've got $10 that says it has to do with their policy requiring you to buy the reg and BC together in order to get the warranty. That policy is BS indeed. We are not a Scubapro dealer for several reasons and that is one of them.

 

[boulderjohn]

I was in a hardware store the other day, looking to replace a toilet, and I asked for advice on different models. Can you believe it? I got the distinct impression they were trying to get me to buy it there! They even seemed to want me to pay for it! When I asked about installation, they quoted me a price that seemed too high, so I did it myself, even though I despise doing plumbing. The process is pretty simple--just about anyone can do it--I just hate plumbing. Before I did the installation, I called a local plumbing company to see what they would charge. Their standard rate for plumbing is $175 per hour, and they said installing a toilet usually takes about 1.5 hours--or about $260. I did it myself, taking just a little over 1.5 hours, so I guess I paid myself the highest hourly wage of my life in the money I saved.

I never hear people complaining about other businesses trying to earn a living by selling a product the way people complain about scuba shops trying to earn a living. I never hear people complain about a plumber charging $175/hour for simple plumbing work, but I hear people rage about scuba shops charging a fraction of that for the hours it takes to service a regulator set.

I guarantee you that if the shops here in Colorado tried to exist on instruction alone, they would be out of business in no time. If it were not for gear sales and escorted trips, they would not earn a profit. The people who work in those shops are not there as a charity to help everyone spend less money on their hobbies; they are trying to put food on their tables and pay their rents. What is so evil about that?

 

[toddthecat]

I was in a hardware store the other day, looking to replace a toilet, and I asked for advice on different models. Can you believe it? I got the distinct impression they were trying to get me to buy it there!

How dare you!!!

---------- Post added August 6th, 2013 at 02:06 PM ----------

The people who work in those shops are not there as a charity to help everyone spend less money on their hobbies; they are trying to put food on their tables and pay their rents. What is so evil about that?

Many people have a sense of entitlement. Everything you have should be provided to them for as cheap as possible (or free) because they actually took the time to allow you to be in their presence.

 

[Lorenzoid]

If my understanding is correct, an example of an instructional agency that charges (more or less) market rates is GUE. I'm new to GUE, but it has been my impression that while GUE instruction costs a lot more than PADI or SSI instruction, they don't try to sell you gear. I really like this model.

 

[boulderjohn]

If my understanding is correct, an example of an instructional agency that charges (more or less) market rates is GUE. I'm new to GUE, but it has been my impression that while GUE instruction costs a lot more than PADI or SSI instruction, they don't try to sell you gear. I really like this model.

It's really funny that so many GUE divers prefer Halcyon gear, isn't it?

BTW, the owner of GUE is the owner of Halcyon.

Please don't read that as a mock on GUE--I have nothing but respect for the organization, and when I patronized the dive shop that is their headquarters (Extreme Exposure in High Springs, Florida), I got excellent service.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

The majority of SEI Instructors are independent. Some like me have small shops and work with other shops. I have two that I work with as well that carry lines that I do not. I have three that I use for fills.

I have no problem sending people to them. I also refer students and people in general to Leisure Pro, Piranha Dive Gear, TDL, and Dive Gear Express. I buy off of all of them myself if necessary.

I do not try to sell my students gear unless they ask me to. One shop has an indoor pool. I send people there for personal gear most times as he has a bigger selection than I do and in exchange I get use of the pool at a steep discount. It's a win win for everyone. Anyone who has dealt with me knows I don't do the hard sell or try to upsell. Not necessary.

I do my best to keep my classes totally separate from selling gear. I may suggest a certain item for a class like an SMB, spool, or wetnotes. But no one is under any obligation to buy from me. There are a few items I require for some classes. If someone can get it cheaper somewhere else cool. As long as they have what is needed.

---------- Post added August 6th, 2013 at 04:40 PM ----------

Then anyone could get certified with a total lack of standards. One dive club might teach really well, the other might not teach worth crap.

It sounds like you're upset because when you did training you had to purchase some gear?

---------- Post added August 6th, 2013 at 01:04 PM ----------




Cool. You figured out what works for you. How are dive shops supposed to know what works for each individual when they're new? It takes time, practice, and experience to develop a sense of what your preferences are for gear. Shops can't magically know. Can't help you with the whole "snorkels are confusing" thing. Sounds like a personal preference!!!

Most CMAS and BSAC training is club based and seems to work pretty well for those able to take advantage of it. I see what she is saying. But it is part of the training for some agencies. Coming up as a DM with PADI it was all about selling the next thing.

Crossing over to the YMCA and NAUI was a shocker. It was all about training and becoming a better diver. There was zero gear selling. And some course selling but not hard sell. In fact the YMCA was great in that we trained them so that if they wanted they never had to come back for more. Only if they wanted to accelerate the process for deep dives, nav, etc.

SEI is the same way and a major reason I stay with them. DM's and AI's are not expected to sell gear. They are supposed to be excellent divers who can also take over teaching for the instructor.

The only class I do strongly recommend after OW is the DRAM Rescue class. And Underwater Nav with Rescue first.

They have all they need for the other stuff including deep with emergency deco procedures in the OW class.

 

[freewillie]

From all my SSI and PADI training, I was struck by the 'Sell in' connection between the certification agencies and the Local Dive Shop. Inevitably, we'd get around to required equipment, and within the constructs of the course would be heavy marketing of the local dive shops equipment and the requirement to get some of this equipment.

What is stocked in the LDS? Generally High end Scubapro, with all the instructors using the latest scubapro stuff. I started purchasing at LeisurePro in 2005 and generally read people talking crap about them for years on this board. As I've matured as a diver I see a new approach which is an open design backplate, Hogarthian harness, wing from many sources all which work together and can be pieced together and actually work and have superior flexability and way lower cost than the list price high end scubapro BCD. What do I see in my local dive shops? A single High End fully assembled wing under the heading 'tech diver' (OOOH STAY AWAY!).

I'm wondering in the land of LeisurePro, Scuba.com, DiveGearExpress.com, etc. will there be a certifying agency that will focus on training skills and not seem to be an LDS Advertisement? What I know know is that gear that got me to 100 dives was not the gear that I want to keep diving with. I have no need to be upright at the surface in my large BCD when I climb up to a dive boat a wing works just fine, just like the snorkel is too damned confusing if I'm not shore diving.

What would be really cool would be to have a certifying agency encourage students to buy appropriate equipment, and avoid buying equipment that they may regret later; or at least know that their diving styles might change. Wouldn't it be refreshing to have PADI say that it takes 25-50 open water dives to get more and more comfortable with diving and most of the requirements are here to support new divers? Designs like BCD's that hold you upright at the surface are specifically designed for new divers ... In my case, buying a regulator, was a good idea, but I'm not sure buying an air-integrated computer was a good idea. Buying a BC was probably not a good idea I would have been better off renting it or realizing that it was a short term investment.

I REALLY feel like their is too much equipment tie in with the PADI and SSI courses I've taken and while I received good information, but for me, it's like their credibility decreases when we spend time on discussing equipment requirements (by the way this equipment we are mentioning is available at your local dive shop!) In my perfect world, training would be done by associations of divers (like a dive club), and Dive Shops would exist to sell gear.

Why do divers who've converted to Hogarthian style rigs with long hoses and bungied octos think that every diver has to dive with the same set up? If I'm not diving a backplate with wings my back inflate BC is somehow inferior?

The vast majority of divers I see either in my local beach and on dive boats dive "standard" equipment. Either jacket or back inflate BC's and regular octo's clipped to their BC. I will on occasion see the backplate with wings set up and less common see the bungied octo. Your LDS is a business, they need to carry items that the majority of diver's will buy, not the highly specialized few.

My LDS is both PADI and NAUI certified. They provide good solid instruction in their classes. They must be doing something right, last week I went to rent a regulator for my daughter and they were completely out of rental gear. All their students had them out for classes. They don't carry Scubapro but feature Atomic, Aeris, and Zeagle. And if you look carefully in their BC rack you will actually find a backplate and harnesses.

I am an unapologetic recreational diver. I have split fins, integrated octo/power inflator combo as my alternate, and back inflate BC. I have NO interest in a Hogarthian style set up, just my preference. If my LDS didn't carry what I wanted to buy I would find a different LDS.