Passenger Bill of Rights for air travel

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pilot fish:
I have no doubt at all that people would think *I* am the author of that theory. :shakehead Please note, I named it, which should give SOME indication of where the theory comes from and whom the author is: OCCAM.:eyebrow:

lol. So, if you take a photograph of a person, I am free to claim and use it as my own, with no credit to you whatsoever, since the subject of the photograph is clearly visible, and is clearly not me?

It is logic like this that makes discussing things with you so entertaining, and downright irresistible. :D

By the way, I find it highly unlikely that Occam actually authored the entry in Wikipedia, in so much as he has been dead for what, like 700 years? Although, hey, sometimes the simplest solution....
 
http://bwnt.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/customer_satisfaction/index.asp

Funny, I wouldn't have expected to see an airline on this list if the industry were so diabolical as to require Congressional oversight as the only possible means to ensure customer service.

One wonders what model Southwest is using to achieve such high marks, since it is not (yet) federally or internationally mandated. Would the proposed Bill of Rights make Southwest more successful (without shifting additional costs to the consumer)?

Or are they so successful because they do what the marketplace wants?

It just seems to me that people who insist that a Passenger Bill of Rights is the only way that airlines can reform, completely ignore the successes of companies that are doing well by their customers on their own. And making money doing it. How can that be explained?

Southwest is one of the very few airlines to consistently turn a profit year after year. While most others are losing money at mind boggling rates. And they are satisfying their customers in the process. That alone should prove that corporate greed does not equal lousy service.

Maybe Congress should just mandate that all airlines adopt Southwest's business model.

How's that for an easy solution? :)
 
OHGoDive:
http://bwnt.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/customer_satisfaction/index.asp

Funny, I wouldn't have expected to see an airline on this list if the industry were so diabolical as to require Congressional oversight as the only possible means to ensure customer service.

One wonders what model Southwest is using to achieve such high marks, since it is not (yet) federally or internationally mandated. Would the proposed Bill of Rights make Southwest more successful (without shifting additional costs to the consumer)?

Or are they so successful because they do what the marketplace wants?

It just seems to me that people who insist that a Passenger Bill of Rights is the only way that airlines can reform, completely ignore the successes of companies that are doing well by their customers on their own. And making money doing it. How can that be explained?

Southwest is one of the very few airlines to consistently turn a profit year after year. While most others are losing money at mind boggling rates. And they are satisfying their customers in the process. That alone should prove that corporate greed does not equal lousy service.

Maybe Congress should just mandate that all airlines adopt Southwest's business model.

How's that for an easy solution? :)

Actually, you have a excellent point. But if we just wait a while, the free market seems to be working well. Slow, but well. SW is doing well, as are several other airlines, while the majority of the big US carriers are struggling with how to make money. While I don't want to be be the one they do a number on, every time they do, they loose a few more customers... keep it up long enough and they will not have any.
 
Last week I got on a flight out of Vancouver bound for Hong Kong. It had been delayed out of JFK and got to Vancouver about an hour and a half late. The folks from JFK sat on the plane at the gate in Vancouver for another hour and a half until we started boarding. Due to heavy wet snow, we sat on the plane for 3 1/2 half hours before being de-iced and departing on our 14 hour trip to Hong Kong. The people from New York would be on that same 747 for more than 24 hours and there were a number of families traveling with children. No mutiny or unrest on the plane, everyone just put the delay in perspective.

One other point here. The flight from Vancouver to Hong Kong takes a quite northerly route, I assume to save fuel by using the jet stream. I was delayed out of Vancouver last September on that flight by more than a couple hours, yet we still got to Hong Kong on time. Should the Bill of Rights address this not taking the most direct route to your destination? In fact, I'd like to see direct flights to all the destinations I want to fly to. I hate being trapped in a strange airport at 2AM, waiting for a 9AM flight. I want a free hotel room if I have a connection time longer than 5 hours! Or at least a refund on my ticket...:wink:
 
The people from New York

No mutiny or unrest on the plane, everyone just put the delay in perspective.

Dennis, are you positive those people were from New York?

I love New Yorkers for many reasons, but I have flight attendant friends who say they won't do the NY routes due to the complaining. You should hear them. Actually listening to a bunch of flight attendants talk about people is always scarey, now that I think about it.

I'm just sayin'....
 
The flight from Vancouver to Hong Kong takes a quite northerly route, I assume to save fuel by using the jet stream.
They'd want to avoid the Jet Stream going west to Hong Kong, and that might have been part of it. Trans ocean flights commonly do take very direct routes that often take them more northerly as that's the straight shot - look at a globe, not a map.

In the US, there was a movement among the airlines to get the FAA to let domestic flights take more direct routes since the airliners have more advanced collision avoidance equipment now than when some of the established routes were laid out. I am not up to date on that, tho...??
 
I'm not sure Don but they made up more than 2 hours on one of my flights so I assumed the northern route was longer.

The flight came from JFK Catherine but I don't think all the passengers were necessarily New Yorkers. I didn't noticed many New York accents in the screams...:wink:
 
Diver Dennis:
<snipped>
One other point here. The flight from Vancouver to Hong Kong takes a quite northerly route, I assume to save fuel by using the jet stream. I was delayed out of Vancouver last September on that flight by more than a couple hours, yet we still got to Hong Kong on time. Should the Bill of Rights address this not taking the most direct route to your destination? In fact, I'd like to see direct flights to all the destinations I want to fly to. <snipped>
The route over the north is a great circle route. The great circle route is the shortest route, so it is the most direct.

The jet stream moves every day due to the continual changing of the earth's weather patterns. It typically flows from west to east, but in some unusual situation and near the tropics it can flow in the opposite direction. A Vancouver to Hong Kong trip is in the opposite direction of the jet stream.

Unfortunately, if there is quite a lot of air traffic the fastest route to your destination is not always the same as the most direct.

You should also remember that direct and non-stop are not the same thing. You can have a flight that is direct from one destination to another, but that makes stops enroute. You will not change aircraft, nor will the flight number change. OTOH, a non-stop flight, by definintion, has no intermediate stops. It would be prohibitively expensive to schedule all flights as non-stop. You would have less flexibility overall, because the airlines would fly less non-stop routes otherwise the aircraft load percentage of passengers would be lower. The hub and spoke model used by the airlines was a way to address the challenges. It does not always work IMO, especially when there is a flight delay at one airport because it has a cascading effect throughout the system.
 
Passengers stuck on grounded planes tell horror stories
Story Highlights&#8226; Passengers say there seemed to be a shortage of deicing fluid at JFK airport
&#8226; One angry flyer says he sat on grounded plane for more than nine hours
&#8226; Not clear how many planes spent hours stuck on tarmac at JFK
&#8226; JetBlue had similar problems last month; canceled many of its flights Friday

NEW YORK (AP) -- Hundreds passengers were stranded for hours overnight on airliners that couldn't take off from John F. Kennedy International Airport because of the ice and snow storm that pummeled the Northeast.

The exact number of planes stuck on the tarmac was unclear, but irate passengers reported that the problems affected several airlines. Pilots and officials blamed some of the problems on a shortage of deicing fluid and a new federal regulation giving pilots a narrow window to get their planes in the air once the chemicals are applied. The change has meant some jets need to get doused repeatedly if their takeoffs are delayed.

Rahul Chandran said he was trapped aboard a Cathay Pacific Airways jet from midnight until nearly 9:30 a.m. Saturday, when the flight to Vancouver was finally canceled. Watch why airlines canceled flights even before weather got bad)

Throughout the night, the pilot repeatedly described problems with deicing equipment, including a lack of fluid, that kept the plane waiting endlessly to have its wings sprayed. When the airline finally gave up and tried to return the plane to its terminal, it took at least another hour to arrange a gate, he said.

"You can't keep your passengers on the plane for 91/2 hours," said Chandran, 30, of New York City. "They kept saying 'half an hour more, 45 minutes more.' But by the time it got to hour six, we were pretty much accepting that we weren't going to go ... At least in the terminal, you can get up and walk around."

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which operates the metropolitan area's airports, said airlines -- not the airport -- are responsible for supplying and maintaining terminal deicing equipment.

Port Authority aviation director Bill DeCosta said airport operators and the carriers need to collectively work out a solution quickly to what is evolving as a major problem with deicing.

Just last month, JetBlue stranded passengers on several planes for up to 10 1/2 hours during a similar storm. At the time, the airline said its inability to get planes deiced in accordance with the new FAA rules was a factor.

"We and the carriers need to sit down and find out whether there is anything we can do," DeCosta said. "I know there are a lot of irate passengers, and they have a right to be."

Other airlines that reported problems included South Korean carrier Asiana Airlines, the charter company Miami Air and Royal Air Maroc, the national airline of Morocco. Royal Air Maroc kept one plane full of passengers on the tarmac for nearly 14 hours, DeCosta said. Two Virgin Atlantic flights -- one diverted from Boston -- also were kept at a standstill for hours, spokeswoman Brooke Lawer said.

One flight sat from 9:45 p.m. until 4 a.m., when it was canceled.

"I know that deicing was a significant factor," Lawer said.

From Friday to Saturday morning, more than 3,600 commuter and mainline flights were canceled nationwide because of the effects of the storm. JetBlue, US Airways, Delta Air Lines and American Airlines all reported cancellations.

For this storm, JetBlue took no chances of a repeat of last month's problems. It canceled about 400 of 550 of all scheduled flights across the country Friday because of the weather, rather than risk leaving more people stuck aboard idle planes. JetBlue expected mostly normal operations Saturday, said spokeswoman Jenny Dervin. (Watch how last month's problems influenced Friday cancellations)

Friday's snow, ice and rain storm closed schools in parts of the Northeast and made highways treacherous. The weather was blamed for nearly a dozen traffic deaths in New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Maryland.

Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

:popcorn:
 
Here is another version of that story, longer, more info - and I am not going to try to remove duplicate info, risking mistakes.

Jet Blue is clear on this one, but other airlines are not. This excerpt from toward the bottom is interesting...

"Another passenger, Peter Shinkle, said he had asked to speak with the pilot about midnight. The flight attendants refused, telling him the pilot was busy. At about 6 a.m., he said, "I began raising a fuss again, and I was permitted to go up in the cabin" and talk with the pilot and co-pilot.

"That's when they told me if we got out of line and went back to the gate, it would take three hours just to go back to the gate," he said. "It's hard to believe, but that's what he said."

After all that, the plane headed back to the gate shortly after 10 a.m. Mr. Paquette, the Terminal 1 official, said the crew had "timed out," meaning that they could no longer be at the controls."


Storm Brings New Woes to Travelers at JFK
By JAMES BARRON The New York Times

NEW YORK (March 18) - Fourteen hours after boarding a flight to North Africa to take part in a 151-mile marathon across the Sahara, Jeremy Colgan completed an endurance feat of a different kind yesterday. He got off the plane, which never left Kennedy Airport.

The Royal Air Maroc jetliner had circled the airport -- at ground level -- for twice as long as its scheduled flight to Casablanca, Morocco. It was de-iced twice. The second time, it had the bad luck to fall in line behind an airplane that broke down inside the de-icing station.

After the pilot gave up and taxied back to the gate at about 10 a.m., Mr. Colgan, 35, said that a voice on the loudspeaker told a planeload of people whose mood ranged from annoyed to angry: "We deeply apologize for the delay. The gods are against us."

In the ice storm that pelted the New York area overnight, theirs was not the only flight that the gods of weather and travel had in their sights. A number of flights were stuck on the ground for hours at J.F.K. on Friday night and into yesterday after the unexpectedly icy weather apparently strained the capacity for de-icing, creating new headaches at an airport where hundreds of JetBlue passengers were stranded for as long as 10 hours during a snowstorm last month.

The Associated Press reported that a Cathay Pacific flight to Vancouver, British Columbia, was finally canceled yesterday after more than nine hours of waiting at J.F.K.

Hoping for a break in the weather, Delta Air Lines boarded three flights from Kennedy on Friday evening. But the storm continued, and the three flights were eventually canceled. The planes never left the gates.

Many flights were also canceled at La Guardia Airport on Friday, but most flights there appeared to be on schedule yesterday, according to FlightStats.com.

Even after the storm had crawled away, it continued to throw off passengers' plans. Continental Airlines canceled 125 flights in the East yesterday. Most were morning flights at Contintentals big hub at Newark Liberty International Airport, where Continental did not begin operations for the day until noon.

JetBlue, which canceled 400 of its 550 flights on Friday, moved early to avoid any chance of a rerun of its troubles on Feb. 14. A spokeswoman said yesterday that JetBlue was operating 95 percent of its scheduled flights and with only brief delays.


JetBlue Puts Freeze on Flights

The ice and sleet put unusual pressure on Kennedys de-icing operations, which are handled by the private companies that operate the terminals.

"This storm was the worst type of storm you could have," said Edward J. Paquette, the executive director of the management company that runs Terminal 1 at Kennedy, the terminal used by Royal Air Maroc. "It was freezing rain and sleet that adheres to everything, the flight surfaces, the fuselage, the wings. Its difficult to remove."

Terminal 1, which handles 17 foreign airlines, used 30,000 gallons of de-icing solution on Friday night. Ordinarily, that amount of the liquid, often referred to as glycol, would last half the winter, Mr. Paquette said.

Because the slick, sloppy roads made the going slow, "the folks who deliver the glycol ran behind" and could not keep up, Mr. Paquette said.

The ice also caused problems for the planes and the equipment that attends to them -- baggage and fuel trucks, for example.

"You have difficulty moving just like you would driving a car," Mr. Paquette said. "Everything has to go that much more slowly."

Some planes at Kennedy were de-iced the conventional way, by trucks with hoses that spray the de-icing fluid. But Kennedy also has a de-icing station, a tentlike structure that functions like a jet-size car wash.

The de-icing station can handle seven planes an hour in a snowstorm, said William DeCota, the director of aviation for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, but an ice storm increases the time needed to complete the process. Mr. DeCota and passengers on at least one of the stranded flights talked of de-icing times as long as four hours.

Compounding the delays, an Alitalia plane broke down while in the de-icing station. The Alitalia jet had to be towed out, and the wait for a tractor to pull the plane held up other planes waiting to go in for de-icing.

The planes were filled with tense and increasingly angry passengers, none more so than the Air Maroc jet, which was to have taken off at 7:30 p.m. on Friday. but did not leave the ground until 9:40 p.m. yesterday. They spent a restless night and morning of napping, wandering the aisles and eating what would have been their in-flight meal a few feet above the tarmac.

Another passenger, Peter Shinkle, said he had asked to speak with the pilot about midnight. The flight attendants refused, telling him the pilot was busy. At about 6 a.m., he said, "I began raising a fuss again, and I was permitted to go up in the cabin" and talk with the pilot and co-pilot.

"That's when they told me if we got out of line and went back to the gate, it would take three hours just to go back to the gate," he said. "It's hard to believe, but that's what he said."

After all that, the plane headed back to the gate shortly after 10 a.m. Mr. Paquette, the Terminal 1 official, said the crew had "timed out," meaning that they could no longer be at the controls.

Barhoumi Rochdi, an account executive for the airline, said the terminal lacked the manpower and equipment to handle the de-icing in such a severe storm.

Once the passengers finally left the plane, the airline told them they could show their boarding passes for free meals at restaurants. Mr. Rochdi said the airline was flying in a larger plane to accommodate the passengers from the Friday
flight as well as those with tickets on one scheduled to depart last night.
 

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