Professional liability when diving with friends

[Northeastwrecks]

I will have finished my PADI DM course by the end of November. Of course, I will be purchasing the required insurance (yuk).

I understand that I am potentially liable for injuries to other divers when I am functioning as their Divemaster. I also understand that the Courts might impose a higher standard in evaluating a DM's conduct.

Does anyone have any thoughts about a dive professional's liability when he/she is not diving in a professional capacity. For example, assume that the DM handles the logistics by booking the boat and coordinating which of his/her friends are available. The DM does not charge the divers or supervise the dive.

Is the DM simply another diver on the boat or will the higher standards of care still apply.

Thanks.

 

[The Chairman]

If YOU as a professional diver arrange/charter/organise a dive than YOU are liable. The extent of the liability is never clear, and one would hope that by doing one's best you would limit that liability. The only true test is a court of law after the fact.

I have most everyone I dive with sign a waiver UNLESS they are a professional diver as well. That being said, I love it when others do the organising part, and I just get to "go along". It removes most of the liability, but not all.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Anyone can be sued for anything. I am not a lawyer so don't take this as legal advice but I am an instructor. As I understand it the out come of a law suit (in theory) is in part based on the duty of care owed, wether or not that duty of care was provided and wether or not the damages are a result of the failure to provide the duty of care. Your conduct is compared to that of the reasonably prudent person (DM, in this case).

To me that means that every person has some duty of care to those around them including in the water. Also, as I understand it, instructors and DM's have been held to a higher duty of care than the non pro even when they were in no way acting in a professional capacity. A deciding factor may be what others expect from you. Are they reasonable in thinking a given duty of care will be provided? If someone does their deepest dive to date because they know a DM is on the dive were they reasonable in their expectations and did you act as a reasonably prudent DM?

If you don't want to be responsible I think it best to make it clear that you do not wish to be. In other words, wether you are DMing or not, does someone think you are?

A good read is the book "The Law and the Dive Proffesional". You can get it throug PADI. I don't know the isbn but I could check.
One other important point I would make is that the most blatant examples of cantrdictory and strange logic I have seen came from courts and juries. It all seems very unpredictable too me.

Any one with a better understanding of this junk please feel free to correct or clearify what I have said.

 

[Dee]

Although I haven't resorted to having my friends sign waivers, I do make sure everyone understands when I am diving for fun and when I am 'on' as DM.

When I organize a trip and invite friends along, they know that my responsibility ends when everyone arrives at the resort and gets in their rooms. If there is a major problem with the resort, I'll deal with it but any and all diving is their responsibility. I'm just another diver in the group.

But as NetDoc says, that doesn't totally remove all responsibility. I'm just very careful who I dive with and who goes on any trip I plan.

 

[jepuskar]

I would think that the courts would definetly eat up the fact that you are a professional, no matter what your involvement is in the dive. Me being the basic open water recreational diver, I do not have the professional expertise you have earned and therefore my liability should be less.

This is where Put Another Dollar In (PADI) can get sued for not requiring basic rescue skills in the OW program.

 

[sea nmf]

Wow. I'm simply a sport diver - not a professional. I have informed my family that if I am injured or die while scuba diving, I hold only myself responsible. They will, I hope, not try to blame anyone else. (Of course, if I get killed or injured by a boat coming to pick me up - that's a different story - almost happened once.)

I feel sad that DMs, or instructors, or any dive professional even has to think about that when out pleasure diving with friends. I, for one, will never hold you responsible. (Well, except for Walter. I want him to worry a little bit.)

If I get into conditions I am not ready for - that was my choice and my responsibility. If my equipment fails - that will be due to my lack of maintenance or a poor piece of equipment - not the dive professionals fault.

I simply cannot think of a situation where I could place blame & responsibility on the dive professional while on a pleasure dive, unless they paniced and physically dragged me into a dangerous situation. Read King Neptunes thread. He could have (and should have) sued the Instructor AND the student.

 

[Spectre]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
Is the DM simply another diver on the boat or will the higher standards of care still apply.

You... professional diver??? Woah...

Ok. As far as I'm concerned, I'm not paying for a class, I'm not paying you. You're my buddy and that's the end of it. I screw up and you'll give me crap about it. You screw up and I'll give you crap about it. Your status in the instructor world has absolutely positively no bearing on your responsibilities as a dive buddy when doing your own personal diving.

Now I speak for myself, but if anyone in our group feels differently, speak up... so I know to avoid them as a dive buddy...

[Yes, one of my biggest pet peeves is stupid lawsuits]

 

[wetman]

So this begs the question, Why would you want to become a DM? (I've actually rarely come in contact with DMs in our neck of the woods so it seems they're rarely needed around here). Other than wanting to teach down the road (which i would figure the AI courses would stear you more in that direction) - why would you do it?

steve

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Spectre once bubbled...


You... professional diver??? Woah...

Ok. As far as I'm concerned, I'm not paying for a class, I'm not paying you. You're my buddy and that's the end of it. I screw up and you'll give me crap about it. You screw up and I'll give you crap about it. Your status in the instructor world has absolutely positively no bearing on your responsibilities as a dive buddy when doing your own personal diving.

Now I speak for myself, but if anyone in our group feels differently, speak up... so I know to avoid them as a dive buddy...

[Yes, one of my biggest pet peeves is stupid lawsuits]

I know. That's scary. Talk about an example of PADI standards going right down the tube. I could be a trial exhibit.

Spectre's and Sea Nmf's philosophy matches mine. However, I'm worried that not everyone would agree, particularly when we are talking about grieving spouses and other relatives.

I'm curious how other people handle this.

BTW, Spectre, I'm confused. You've.... done.... something.... wrong????

Wetman, I became a DM because (1) I wanted to gain experience in dive theory and the other aspects of diving that are not covered in other courses; (2) I want to teach; and (3) I did not want the added responsibility of an AI until I had become comfortable as a DM. In addition, I've discovered during my apprenticeship that I enjoy working with certified divers (whether in advanced classes or on fun dives) more than students.

My question would still stand if I had become an AI. Good, bad or indifferent, you are considered a professional diver by PADI and the Courts.

 

[DivePartner1]

A suit against PADI for not teaching rescue in OW doesn't seem very viable, particularly since they offer the course as a more advanced speciality. Gut a vacationing DM or even a Resue Diver is at greater risk than a OW even if not 'on the job' particularly if a less qualified buddy is injured, and particularly if viewed as a deep pocket. The argument would likely be that the less qualified diver 'relied' on the other diver's greater expertise to his detriment (whether true or not is for the jury of your non-diving peers).

I'm not agreeing with this approach, but it is not novel. I've often encountered claims over the years against professionals for out scope work or for tasks that were disclaimed in writing. The simple claim goes along the following lines--'we're out to lunch, they knew more than us--it MUST be their fault'. The same 'logic' could apply to diving.

I added Rescue as a risk area since a claimant and lawyer might not make a distinction between a professional and a non-professional, especially if one has an impressive sounding title.

The solution for any diver would be to keep well insured against potential liabililty. Northeast, you may want to shop the insurance market and see if anyone offers coverage for ANY claim based on your DM status, whether of not you're serving as a professional at the time of the claim. Good luck!