Pushing the limits? Is it a good idea?

[Richard FDC]

A group from North Florida worked to send a message to new divers that overhead environments and allowing others to take you beyond the limits of your training and experience can be deadly.

Go No Farther- An Important Message​

 

[boulderjohn]

As is so often the case in discussions like this, the phrase "pushing the limits" is so non-specific it is meaningless. Let me give some examples of how a new diver might react to cases of pushing the limits.

1. The diver finished OW with a personal depth limit of 60 feet from the OW class dives. On the next dive, someone proposes going to 61 feet. Is this pushing the limits likely to be deadly? Should that diver refuse to do so until certified to dive to 61 feet? Should that diver then take a class to go to 62 feet, or could that diver take a really big chance and push that limit without assistance?

2. OW divers are told never to go into an overhead environment without proper training. If the diver's buddy recklessly swims under the anchor chain, thus being in an overhead environment for 0.013 seconds, should that buddy refuse to follow? What class is appropriate for certifying divers to go under anchor chains? How about 3 foot wide arches?

3, If a diver decides that going to 61 feet is OK, how about going to 161 feet? It's just the same dive, only deeper, right?

4. If a diver decides that going through a 3 foot wide arch is OK, how about a cave? It's just another overhead, right?

Absolute rules like "don't push the limits" are absurd and are no guidance for the common sense you need to understand what it takes to push those limits safely.

 

[Doby45]

At this point this is basically spam, why is it being cross posted in multiple forum sections? It has been posted in "New divers", in "Industry news" and now in Basic.. How about you go ahead and post it in the Cave, Sidemount and Rebreather section. Don't forget to also post in each of the named sponsors sections too.

 

[Richard FDC]

As is so often the case in discussions like this, the phrase "pushing the limits" is so non-specific it is meaningless. Let me give some examples of how a new diver might react to cases of pushing the limits.

1. The diver finished OW with a personal depth limit of 60 feet from the OW class dives. On the next dive, someone proposes going to 61 feet. Is this pushing the limits likely to be deadly? Should that diver refuse to do so until certified to dive to 61 feet? Should that diver then take a class to go to 62 feet, or could that diver take a really big chance and push that limit without assistance?

2. OW divers are told never to go into an overhead environment without proper training. If the diver's buddy recklessly swims under the anchor chain, thus being in an overhead environment for 0.013 seconds, should that buddy refuse to follow? What class is appropriate for certifying divers to go under anchor chains? How about 3 foot wide arches?

3, If a diver decides that going to 61 feet is OK, how about going to 161 feet? It's just the same dive, only deeper, right?

4. If a diver decides that going through a 3 foot wide arch is OK, how about a cave? It's just another overhead, right?

Absolute rules like "don't push the limits" are absurd and are no guidance for the common sense you need to understand what it takes to push those limits safely.

I think we can split hairs all day but most people understand the meaning of "pushing the limits." It's not diving to 61' when you are certified to only 60. The phrase was used to convey a meaning so please help me find a better way to convey that meaning in just a few words in the title.

 

[Richard FDC]

At this point this is basically spam, why is it being cross posted in multiple forum sections? It has been posted in "New divers", in "Industry news" and now in Basic.. How about you go ahead and post it in the Cave, Sidemount and Rebreather section. Don't forget to also post in each of the named sponsors sections too.

I posted this here again at the request of a ScubaBoard Staff Member who moved the thread to a different location and thought (as I do) that a continued discussion of safety aspects would be a good thing. As much of a surprise as this may come this video was created by a good group of people who gave thanklessly to make it happen because we care about saving lives. The sponsors you are so concerned about allowed us to use their facilities, lent us equipment, filled our tanks, donated their time, and provided us lunch. (that subway sandwich sure tasted good on the 2 1/2 hour ride home that started at 11:00pm on Sunday night when we finally wrapped it up) Thanks for your kind words but that chip on your shoulder certainly is unattractive.

 

[DevonDiver]

I approached this issue in an article I wrote a few years ago:

Why The Need For Rules, Boundaries and Limitations?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

As is so often the case in discussions like this, the phrase "pushing the limits" is so non-specific it is meaningless. Let me give some examples of how a new diver might react to cases of pushing the limits.

1. The diver finished OW with a personal depth limit of 60 feet from the OW class dives. On the next dive, someone proposes going to 61 feet. Is this pushing the limits likely to be deadly? Should that diver refuse to do so until certified to dive to 61 feet? Should that diver then take a class to go to 62 feet, or could that diver take a really big chance and push that limit without assistance?

2. OW divers are told never to go into an overhead environment without proper training. If the diver's buddy recklessly swims under the anchor chain, thus being in an overhead environment for 0.013 seconds, should that buddy refuse to follow? What class is appropriate for certifying divers to go under anchor chains? How about 3 foot wide arches?

3, If a diver decides that going to 61 feet is OK, how about going to 161 feet? It's just the same dive, only deeper, right?

4. If a diver decides that going through a 3 foot wide arch is OK, how about a cave? It's just another overhead, right?

Absolute rules like "don't push the limits" are absurd and are no guidance for the common sense you need to understand what it takes to push those limits safely.

Good point. Context is everything in diving. That's why it's so important when an instructor or mentor tells a new diver something, to explain why you're telling them that. Pushing your limits isn't necessarily a bad thing ... it's how we grow as divers. What's a bad thing is doing something inherently dangerous without realizing it ... or why you should do it. And divers often do those things even while staying within the limits of their training (e.g. buddy separation) ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

At this point this is basically spam, why is it being cross posted in multiple forum sections? It has been posted in "New divers", in "Industry news" and now in Basic.. How about you go ahead and post it in the Cave, Sidemount and Rebreather section. Don't forget to also post in each of the named sponsors sections too.

I disagree. The post was moved from New Divers to Industry News after several divers decided it was more productive to bash the acting or criticize the length of the video ... mainly because in doing so you violated the rules for posting in that forum.

It's a better fit here. I think a lot of Basic level divers can benefit from the message ... even if the cavers in our midst don't get any benefit from it except the satisfaction of bitching about it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I think this is an important enough topic that we discuss it without splitting hairs. Too many people think it is ok to do Overhead environments when they aren't ready/trained.

I agree with boulderjohn as I often do.. we need to have a better parameters for the discussion here. Saying "Pushing the limits" is non specific. What we need to discuss is what those limits should be. We can see that the anchor chain analogy is silly but a discussion about the definition of what experienced divers consider to be overhead environments. I know this has been discussed ad nauseum in the past BUT active discussion is a benefit to our new members who are often also new divers.

Some locations dive operators present these dives as "no bid deal.. we do it all the time". Divers then wind up making a choice about what they will or will not do. A discussion about the issues could be helpful in giving new divers the parameters to make better choices and giving them the confidence to "Just say NO".

IMHO too often new divers don't want to "hold anyone back" or appear to be too timid. We need to support them. Sadly I don't think there are enough instructors out there like Bob and Jim Lapenda who prepare their students to say NO.


We would have to drive 6 hours to get to the nearest cave. There are a lot of swim throughs and I regularly poke my head under ledges. I hate any tight space where there is any chance of being hung up such as wrecks. I feel comfortable entering an area where I may not be able to ascend directly to the surface but can ascend at an angle of 60degrees, never lose the sight of daylight and silting is not a risk. To me that is not "pushing the limits". I'd be interested to hear what others say... and certainly encourage people to watch the video for educational purposes.

 

[Patoux01]

...

Out of curiosity, have you been to South West Rocks? If so, in what category does that fall to you? (I recall someone here telling me "there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing it on a single tank - single file and a single torch per person", but I can't recall who it was).
For those not familiar with it, this is a map

Straight line, no sideways. There's dozens of divers a day going through.
Now why do I bring this up... Well it's simple, all dive ops around will happily take anyone inside. So while it's cool to encourage the guys that dive by themselves to be careful, I feel that's not necessarily the most efficient solution. Maybe the agencies could do some more?


While I'm more than happy to discuss what a beginner should and should not do, I do believe that a title suggesting "pushing the limits" is a bad thing, much like boulderjohn explained. If I look at the depth records on scuba, we went from 330 to a whooping 332m. I'm not saying it's great or encouraging such a thing, but that's pushing a limit as well. Should he have gone for 450 because "adding 1m is not pushing the limits" ?