Question about pony bottles

[Txredneck]

My thoughts on octo's. Do you have a second stage octo to match your primary? Or do you have a yellow thingy? Just for fun you should breath from that yelllow thingy at depth some time, then swim into the current for 100 yards to simmulate a stressed sac. Let us know how that works for you.
Eric

I have an Apeks XTX 50 primary and XTX 40 octo. Is there a point your trying to make? You said, "my thoughts on octo's", yet...from what you typed I'm still left wondering...what are your thoughts on octos????

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I intend to back mount the pony bottles, right hand side. The 2nd stage is yellow with yellow hose, very distinctive from the primary 2nd stage. It will be tucked into a right hand octo pocket, as that is the most secure attachment we have used. Its always there, never comes loose the way many of the other attachments we've tried do...dangling octo like I often see in people's videos. This way there is no difference in what me already know, exactly the same as our octo has always been.

We are buddy diving, not solo diving. I know anything is possible, but... There are two pony bottles, we're buddy diving. That's 38 cu ft, not 19, of reserve air. As previously noted, when we have dove with singles with and primary and octo on one tank, the best planning I've found was to calculate enough air for diver and buddy to make it to surface including a safety stop. By that calculation I get 35 cu ft reserve when we start heading up. If anything went wrong with one tank, we would have 35 cu ft, no more. With 2 pony bottles, if something goes wrong, we have 35 cu ft, and also 38 cu ft. That's 73 cu ft reserve, 38 cu ft more than we've been diving with. And if the very unlikely scenario of both of us OOA in our mains, its equivalent to what we've been diving with. I think 19's are adequate for our diving. But certainly there must be some scenario where a 149 cu ft pony would not be enough........

I've never had any plan made to hand off my main tank with octo off to another diver in the past, neither do I plan to hand off my pony to another diver. Just as we've been doing I would hand off my pony reg, gain our wits, grab arms and ascend

We're not technical divers. We don't push NDL limits. We are not required to do a safety stop in our diving, it is suggested and we always observe it, usually exceed it. But in an emergency its not required. I ALWAYS plan enough gas for a safety stop, and enough gas for 2 divers.

Dive equipment rarely fails. But it does fail. In the short time we've been diving I've seen 2 different divers blow out valve o rings. One on the surface, the other and around 40 ft.

I've already read through every pony bottle thread I could find on here and other forums/blogs. I've already read through all the arguements of slinging vs side mount, maintaining an octo in addition to pony. I've read through the "Spare Air" 3 cu ft toy bottles. We're not diving to 130 ft, we're not even diving to 100 ft. Some people dive with their hands clasp, some cross their arms. I hold my console computer with both hands, and look at it often. We have those loud pvc clackers, noise makers. We've drilled when you see something 1 or 2 knocks, when there's an emergency bang it non stop

I strongly encourage you to NOT place the pony regulator in a pocket. There are many reasons this is not best. For one is can fall out, for another it can free flow without being obvious and with a back mounted pony and presumably no pressure gage you have no way to check for this- so it is very important that the pony does not freeflow and lose your air.

For 20 or so years , I had the pony second stage clipped off securely in various locations, but I have concluded that the safest and best place for it is on a neck lanyard. It is easy to deploy and find and it should be very evident if it free flows when in that position. So, when/if you share air... you would donate your primary reg and use the pony yourself..

 

[doctormike]

We are buddy diving, not solo diving. I know anything is possible, but...

But what? You are situationally aware enough and thoughtful enough to rig an entire separate gas supply system for each of you (that's great!), which is really there in case of a failure like a ruptured LP hose or something else that will rapidly deplete your primary gas supply. Buddy separation is a far more common scenario than equipment failure, don't you think that it's worth planning for that as well? And if your position is that simultaneous buddy separation and equipment failure is such an unlikely combination that it's not worth planning for specifically, then why do you need the pony at all? Your pony is on your buddies' back, if that's your scenario.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't have a pony, I'm just saying that in figuring out what to carry, you should consider the scenario that you are planning for.

the best planning I've found was to calculate enough air for diver and buddy to make it to surface including a safety stop. By that calculation I get 35 cu ft reserve when we start heading up.

Great do do those calculations! Can you let us know how you got that figure?

 

[Kharon]

... if the tank is clipped off in front of you like a stage bottle and you can SEE the tank and follow the hose and regulator, it is almost impossible to get confused.

If you have an octo (yellow) 2nd stage on the pony with a yellow hose I don't think it's so hard to keep it straight no matter where it's mounted. Also, I have an octo holder clipped to my right shoulder - the pony reg is always there = no confusion.

Personally I removed the octo from my 1st stage and moved it to my pony. I'm not going to argue the case for that - it's been beaten to death in other threads. I'll just say it works best for me.

I do think having a pony is a no brainer - but as some of the above posts said - practice with it till it's second nature. I carry mine on every dive. I'm 67 and not nearly as strong as I once was. I don't notice the extra weight on land or in the water. Comes a time when I can't carry the pony because it's too heavy I don't belong in the water.

---------- Post added May 20th, 2014 at 10:07 AM ----------

Adding a pony bottle to either the rescuer's gear, or the incapacitated diver's gear, or both, causes the emergency response we drilled on, to be altered significantly.

Don't understand why you couldn't ignore the pony and do as you were taught. Just because it's there doesn't mean you absolutely have to use it.

---------- Post added May 20th, 2014 at 10:14 AM ----------

My thoughts on octo's. Do you have a second stage octo to match your primary? Or do you have a yellow thingy? Just for fun you should breath from that yelllow thingy at depth some time, then swim into the current for 100 yards to simmulate a stressed sac. Let us know how that works for you.
Eric

I have Cressi XS2 2nd stages - very inexpensive. I've used both under the conditions you describe. No problem with either. There is a lot of eliteism re. regulators which is mostly bushwah. There is a range from about $150 to $1900 - that is more than 10X low to high. There is no way the $1900 reg is more than ten times better. Sorry - I just don't buy the marketing hype.

 

[T.C.]

Great do do those calculations! Can you let us know how you got that figure?

And please, let us know the calculated breathing rate for that stressed, possibly panicked diver.

 

[Txredneck]

But what? You are situationally aware enough and thoughtful enough to rig an entire separate gas supply system for each of you (that's great!), which is really there in case of a failure like a ruptured LP hose or something else that will rapidly deplete your primary gas supply. Buddy separation is a far more common scenario than equipment failure, don't you think that it's worth planning for that as well? And if your position is that simultaneous buddy separation and equipment failure is such an unlikely combination that it's not worth planning for specifically, then why do you need the pony at all? Your pony is on your buddies' back, if that's your scenario.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't have a pony, I'm just saying that in figuring out what to carry, you should consider the scenario that you are planning for.



Great do do those calculations! Can you let us know how you got that figure?

Of course I'm planning for separation. If we are separated and my son has a main tank failure, he has a pony on his back. If we are separated and I have a main tank failure, I have a pony on my back. We follow standard procedure for separation. If we are separated and we are diving a single tank with octo, and one of us has a failure, where does that leave us??? EXACTLY one of the reasons I think a pony would be superior to the single tank w/octo. AM I MISSING SOMETHING???

I am NOT planning for every scenario presented to me here in this thread, and currently I have no intention of planning for such. As previously noted, we have 40 dives as certified divers. We've done 15 resort dives before that. I'm planning for my son and myself. Not even going to consider if my son is separated, and suddenly another diver needs my pony at the same time my main fails, only to discover that my pony doesn't have any air in it because I've been breathing from it the whole dive, when I suddenly discover that my left fin is on my right foot...

This is the probably one of the best gas planning articles I've read, closely mirrors most other info I've found on such. Outlines how I've calculated our reserve/planning.
NWGratefulDiver.com

 

[doctormike]

And please, let us know the calculated breathing rate for that stressed, possibly panicked diver.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at.

My feeling is that the calculations for true emergency ascent gas requirements need such a big fudge factor that you are better off just carrying as much gas as you can within reason. I really do believe that a 30 or 40 slings just as easily as a 19, so why not have that buffer?

However, the OP seems pretty set on tank mounting his pony, so I guess if you will only accept that then you might be more inclined to compromise volume for other considerations. One more reason to sling, IMHO!

 

[kwinter]

Leave it to SB to complicate the issue with multiple second stages and how to mount everything. I learned the 3 Bs of public speaking.
Be direct;
Be brief; and
Be gone.

To get back to the original question:

And my question... Since it SEEMS a no brainer that a pony is superior to a single tank with octo, am I missing something???

No, you are not missing a damn thing.


Please pardon any typos. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[T.C.]

Do you have any photographs of how a back mounted pony coming of the left side would have the hose routed over your left side? I am not sure I understand how that would work with our standard regulator configurations?

Do you really want to see how a hose from a tank mounted on a diver's left side would come around him on that left side? Where else would it go; across the pony and main tank to his right?


Well, here's a picture. Pony Bottle - Diving Equipment - scuba diving training, dive safety, deep diving, Nitrox diver.


The hose would come either over the shoulder or under the arm, but either way, coming from the left side, when a standard regulator configuration comes from the right side, should alert a diver they grabbed the wrong regulator.

Have you ever used that 19 cu-ft pony to ascend? You indicated it was just barely enough to get you up from the bottom to the surface. How deep do you dive with that pony bottle?

Yes, I have done training ascents on it. I take it on any dive I can, wherethe expected depth is greater than 60 feet. When I do train with it, Ibreath that as hard as I can to simulate the probable air use in anstressful emergency. Yes, you can compute air use using your normalbreathing rate, but in an emergency, your air use will go way up. It's best to train for the worst case.

Why don't you try out your 6 cu ft tank from 90 feet and breath that as hard as you can? You may be shocked as to how short it lasts.

This is why I say a 19 is the minimum supply for an emergency ascent.Doctormike was correct in pointing out that for a true redundant supply, 30 or 40 cu ft would be better.



TXredneck, you've already convinced yourself that you don't need thisstandard piece of emergency gear, whose addition adds very little risk but dramatically expands your range of rescue and emergency options.

I suggest that you talk to an instructor about these reasons, perhaps they can show you why many of us don't consider this a good idea. My point is simple. You want the ability to supply an OOA diver from your main tank, where there is potentially more gas. Right now, your only option to do this is buddy breathing, a difficult skill under good circumstances.

Do what you wish, but my opinion is that you can significantly enhance your safety with the simple addition of the Octo.

 

[Txredneck]

And please, let us know the calculated breathing rate for that stressed, possibly panicked diver.

I doubled our sac rate. As it happens, I've been overexerted from just about what your talking about; swimming upstream to get my son who had gone ahead of me in a rapid chase for critters. I found it really handy to have that data from my computer download.