Rebreathers... why are they not more popular?

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fookisan

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See rebreathers on Deep Sea Detectives but that is about it. When I ask at the scuba shop or at the dive resorts I come up with nothing. Why are rebreathers not more mainstream if they are so good? Are they a pain in the *** to maintain? The only benefit I know of with rebreathers is silent diving - which I sometimes would enjoy after prolonged shallow diving and getting sick of the bubble noise in my ears. Any other benefits? Is it expensive to get into? Where would one start to discover diving with rebreathers?

Thanks,

Dan
 
I would say expense and since it's different technology then open circuit, people aren't comfortable with change. I also hear (though someone correct me if I'm wrong) that it's maintenance intensive (at least more then regular scuba).

One benefit I know is that it also acts as your BC.
 
Price and training level. Also they are more technical than a basic scuba and are overkill for a lot of divers.
 
fookisan:
See rebreathers on Deep Sea Detectives but that is about it. When I ask at the scuba shop or at the dive resorts I come up with nothing. Why are rebreathers not more mainstream if they are so good? Are they a pain in the *** to maintain? The only benefit I know of with rebreathers is silent diving - which I sometimes would enjoy after prolonged shallow diving and getting sick of the bubble noise in my ears. Any other benefits? Is it expensive to get into? Where would one start to discover diving with rebreathers?

Thanks,

Dan
Check out www.rvtiburon.com for the rebreather dive trips. the rv tiburon filmed a few deep sea detective shows.
 
fookisan:
See rebreathers on Deep Sea Detectives but that is about it. When I ask at the scuba shop or at the dive resorts I come up with nothing. Why are rebreathers not more mainstream if they are so good? Are they a pain in the *** to maintain? The only benefit I know of with rebreathers is silent diving - which I sometimes would enjoy after prolonged shallow diving and getting sick of the bubble noise in my ears. Any other benefits? Is it expensive to get into? Where would one start to discover diving with rebreathers?

Thanks,

Dan

I think they are not more popular because 1) they are expensive 2) they are REALLY expensive 3) they are more technical, and require a lot more monitoring to ensure something minor does not happen, like say death.

Fully closed rebreathers constrantly monitor depth, and adjust the gas mix so one is basically breathing more O2. With the optimum gas mixture, one's NDL is dramatically increased, like several fold for most recreational dives. Since gas is recycled, one has almost unlimited air when compared to conventional tanks.

A couple guys on rebreathers diving a shallow reef could have bottom times measured in hours. I've not taken a class, or tried this technology, so my information is based on talking with those that have used them, and reading on the subject.

It's something I'd definately try once I'm living in an area where I can do more diving than the vacation and mudhole diving I do now.
 
RonFrank:
Fully closed rebreathers constrantly monitor depth, and adjust the gas mix so one is basically breathing more O2. .
That is NOT true. The rest is OK though. A closed circuit rebreather monitors PPO2 (not depth) and adjusts the oxygen accordingly whether it is manually controlled or electronic.
My rebreather takes me about an hour to assemble, fill scrubber and tanks, predive and then another hour to disassemble and clean. That is fine for a day of diving when I go do a couple of wreck dives but for a simple shore dive with some OC buddies it is a little overkill.
A rebreather can literally kill you without warning although proper training and attention to detail can alleviate that risk quite a bit. As others mentioned they cost more. Until you start diving open circuit with trimix then RBs are way cheaper to operate.
My teenage son dives a semiclosed dolphin and loves it for every dive profile. I use a reabreather as a tool for a certain job (dive) I don't always use the same tool for every job.
 
Dan, there is quite a broad range of rebreathers available these days, new and used, but I'll try and answer some of the questions you raised and comment on some of the points made.
fookisan:
When I ask at the scuba shop or at the dive resorts I come up with nothing.
No doubt more scuba shops carry OC gear than rebreathers. In areas where there are enough divers to support rebreathers you'll find stores having them on display or in stock. Some have a Dräger SCR or two, the most popular (and oldest consumer) semi-closed rebreather available. There are a few 'rebreather shops' in areas that have multiple instuctors or instructors with multiple ratings that support multiple models and types.

There are resorts catering to RB divers, as well as dive boats and liveaboards. You just have to look for them. Take Belize for example, dozends and dozends of dive shops, but at Protech Belize you'll find SCRs and CCR (including rentals), training, supplies and day trips.

Why are rebreathers not more mainstream if they are so good?
A couple of factors:
- price, for initial unit purchase, additional training and maintainance
- additional maintainance
- additional training, you need type rating for RBs, training on one doesn't mean you can dive another
- you pretty much start from scratch
- different failure possibilities and different actions to take
- less support by shops (absorbant, gasses, supplies and spares)
- people don't know much about them and don't bother to change that

Are they a pain in the *** to maintain?
Depends a lot on the unit, a MK series or Cis-Lunar can be quite difficult and very expensive to maintain, a Sport Kiss or Dolphin quite easy. But there are more components to clean, assemble and vigilantly check for correct operation. A simple hose down after a dive weekend isn't gonna do it.

The only benefit I know of with rebreathers is silent diving - which I sometimes would enjoy after prolonged shallow diving and getting sick of the bubble noise in my ears. Any other benefits?
They all extend the dive duration you'll get from your gas. Even cmf-SCR like the Dolphin will keep you in the water longer, depending on the nitrox based flow rate. RMV keyed SCRs extend that again, about 1:8 regardless of depth (used with nitrox or trimix). With a CCR, where the loop is closed (until ascent, then they vent like a BC) gas savings are multiple times that. Only metabolized O2 gets replenished, around 1 lpm at light workload. A small 2 liter cylinder (13 cuft) at 200 bar will last for hours.
That can translate into enormous gas savings when diving trimix (He costs around 80¢/ cu ft, so filling twin 98 with 10/50 will cost $80 or more ... and last less time!).

SCRs run of nitrox (or trimix), so you get the same advantages as OC nitrox.
CCRs, instead of using a fixed gas mix, use a fixed pO2 setpoint. For example 1.2 ata, and mix the O2 and the diluent (air, trimix or heliox) on your back so that the partial pressure of the oxygen stays the same at different depth and the mix changes. That will give you the 'best mix' for the depth you're at, increase your NDL and decrease deco when you incurr it.

Is it expensive to get into?
As mentioned above, there is a broad range of rebreathers.
From the $1,800 Dräger Ray to the $15,000 Ouroboros.
Semi-closed units range from the Ray to the Halcyon RB80 at around $8,500.
Manually controlled CCRs are between $4,000 and $5,500.
Most electronically controlled CCRs are between $7,500 and $10,000.
A few eCCRs are in the $15,000 range, even used.

Where would one start to discover diving with rebreathers?
Reading, really. There are some good sites on the web, such as Rebreathers Worlwide and Rebreather World. Jeff Bozanic's book "Mastering Rebreathers". Rebreather forums. Major dive shows usually are attended by at least some of the manufacturers.

Then find an instructor for a unit you're intrested in and try it. Do a rebreather intro. Get trained, go dive and get experienced. Don't get complacent.
 
RonFrank:
I think they are not more popular because ... 2) they are REALLY expensive
Well, not all of them. :wink:
Especially when compared to multiple tanks rigged with high end regulators.

3) they are more technical, and require a lot more monitoring to ensure something minor does not happen, like say death.
If you refer to maintainance and and pre/post dive protocol with "technical" I agree, it is probably a turn off for some people. Same for the need to be on top of what the gas mix in you loop is. Rebreathers are not for people who mindlessly enjoy the sights when diving ... then again, neither is OC, really.

Since you're breathing in a loop, rebreathers almost always supply you with gas. Since it usually isn't the gas composition in the tank, and CO2 gets expelled into the loop, the gas you breath may not sustain your well being ... or your life. I'm sure many people, more so with limited knowledge on the subject, find that intimidating enough to keep them away from rebreathers.

Fully closed rebreathers constrantly monitor depth, and adjust the gas mix so one is basically breathing more O2.
Or less O2, depending on your depth. When going deep you'll be breathing a hypoxic mix to avoid O2 poisening. Just as you would diving a hypoxic mix on OC.

With the optimum gas mixture, one's NDL is dramatically increased, like several fold for most recreational dives. Since gas is recycled, one has almost unlimited air when compared to conventional tanks.
Almost unlimited gas, usually not air (21% O2/79% N2, give or take a few 1/100).
On most rebreathers the scrubber capacity (removing CO2 that is generated in the breathing process) is the limiting factor.

A couple guys on rebreathers diving a shallow reef could have bottom times measured in hours.
Same with shorterbut deeper bottom times and long deco obligations. Deep cave explorers using scooters and rebreathers with large scrubbers (8 lbs +) have done dives in excess of 9 hours, to depths past 300 msw.

The huge amount of gases needed for such dives on OC makes the use of rebreathers the only feasible option.
 
wedivebc:
That is NOT true. The rest is OK though. A closed circuit rebreather monitors PPO2 (not depth) and adjusts the oxygen accordingly whether it is manually controlled or electronic.
My rebreather takes me about an hour to assemble, fill scrubber and tanks, predive and then another hour to disassemble and clean. That is fine for a day of diving when I go do a couple of wreck dives but for a simple shore dive with some OC buddies it is a little overkill.
A rebreather can literally kill you without warning although proper training and attention to detail can alleviate that risk quite a bit. As others mentioned they cost more. Until you start diving open circuit with trimix then RBs are way cheaper to operate.
My teenage son dives a semiclosed dolphin and loves it for every dive profile. I use a reabreather as a tool for a certain job (dive) I don't always use the same tool for every job.

PPO2 changes based on depth, so it's kinda true :eyebrow:

Thank you and caveseeker2 for the additional info. This technology is facinating to me, and I have even considered taking the class at our LDS. Problem is, where I dive locally I don't really want a lot more bottom time :11:
 
RonFrank:
PPO2 changes based on depth, so it's kinda true :eyebrow:
LOL, that's kinda like gauging your depth on the pressure gauge:
When the gas goes fast you're deep. :wink:

Actually, on CCRs you flush the loop with diluent (a known gas) to verify the sensors.
Ambient pressure (depth) multiplied by the pO2@1ata should be the value you see on your pO2 gauge ... so if you know the sensors are good you could calculate depth from that reading. :wink:

Some CCRs actually have depth sensors, such as the Megalodon, PRISM, Vision-equiped APD CCRs, Ouroboros, Cis-Lunar etc. Either because they feature automatic setpoint switching and/or integrated decompression computers. :D

This technology is facinating to me, and I have even considered taking the class at our LDS. Problem is, where I dive locally I don't really want a lot more bottom time :11:
You can always do an intro. That's basically an introduction lecture followed by some pool time. Gives you a good idea of how a particular unit works, what's involved in setting it up for a dive and how it feels in the water.
I've done
several rebreather intros , on the Dolphin, Inspiration Classic, PRISM Topaz and MK16. I would do intros on the Sport Kiss and Meg anytime. Each unit is different, each has pros and cons, and the intros helped make the decision.
Intros are exciting as rebreathers feel completely different than OC equipment. They're also a hell of a lot of fun, :D
 

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