Refillable filter cartridges

[Peter69_56]

Iain

When people start sourcing and filling their own filters with materials sourced from non compliant suppliers
And then putting them in my machines - it is my Brand that people look at with expectations of air quality

Below is a example of things that can go horribly wrong when people do what they want and don't source the correct materials

I was on holiday at this site - running 3 Bauers and a Nitrox Membrane system - i felt the air was not up to standard and asked to see their filters and compressors

Attached you will see a picture of molecular sieve and activated carbon which i pulled out of a machine ( a Bauer with P21 filters - woefully inadequate for the conditions ) which they were repacking - just in layers !! not with the carbon running up the middle and molecular sieve on the outside
They were re - using the sponge pads - not even washing them or putting new ones

The oil !! we drained it and it was completely black ( this was sourced from a Bauer agent - who was decanting Shell oil into a 5 L and writing by hand "Bauer synthetic oil " it may have been breathing air grade oil - Nitrox compatible ?? Clearly not as it was black

I had the most disgusting air ever from this Bauer setup

Its seems you have nothing good to say about Coltri - other than its a Paintball machine pressed into service
( yes we do supply paintball - but the majority of our units end up in the Scuba and Fire markets )
So instead of knocking Coltri - why not put your clearly vast knowledge to educating people out there of correct practices and not encouraging that
they start repacking their filters with dubious materials
At least I know when i send out a machine it has a adequate filtration system specced as standard
And we supply original oil - it is specced for our machines for Nitrox
And when my clients re pack their filters they are using the correct materials sourced from me -

So i ask you ! would you like to breathe off a machine with correct materials and a properly trained operator or someone who is putting in the cheapest materials he can find

My goal is the best quality air out there for all clients - through education and not scaremongering
and i try and keep my materials at the best possible pricing

see the pic of materials from the mentioned site View attachment 202656
what should be molecular sieve has been identified as Activated Alumina
and heaven knows what that carbon is ?

and you can make your own deductions as to which is the proper oil
View attachment 202656View attachment 202657

Ok my thoughts on your response;

Agree, some people take short cuts and take the cheapest nastiest options. As a supplier you cannot stop people buying your product and then abusing it and then trying to blame you. Yes, it sucks and not your fault, but that's the reality of the world, and you will be unable to stop those who don't care. They just wont listen. I think nothing you say will make many change their minds.

You say a bauer agent supplied oil not to spec, now I don't know you or anyone in SA, so potentially every supplier in SA might do the same. In reality I know most wont, but you understand my message here, just because you say you are honest Joe, doesn't mean you are. I am not saying you are less than honest but words mean little. The chinese ripoff Coltri I bought was "a quality product and they were going to look after me and provide all the support I needed" that is until it broke, and then I had nothing, so again I state words mean little, in particular with the internet and the vast distances involved. Actual actions and reliable product speaks volumes.

I understand your issue re the bauer compressor and agree that sucks, but soon as the compressor leaves your hands you have no control over it.

In any regard, your argument doesn't prove that every non genuine item is bad, I agree some are, however you just proved, bauer a recognised and top of the range compressor, can be tainted by a bad agent. A good non genuine supplier in the circumstances you describe would be a better option. You as the SA supplier of Coltri may be the genuine article, however one of your resellers might be the worst in SA, thus your image becomes damaged. Not the fault of the customer at all.

I have a bauer now (after my disappointing chinese coltri copy), and have genuine and non genuine spares. Oil is genuine, and some filters, but I also have non genuine which to me look quality. I have purchased refill material from reliable compressor suppliers, so should I now not use them, just in case? Just because its not bauer (or coltri) doesn't mean its necessarily bad.

An example is I went to a car yard to buy an expansion plug for my car made of brass. Its about 60mm and a dish shape to seal a machining hole in the engine block. They wanted $30. The component is stamped out like mouse poo. I went down the road to a non genuine dealer and bought one for 30 cents which is about what they are really worth. Paying 100 times the real price doesn't make it any better quality, and if I were a betting man, they both came from the same manufacturer.

Now in trying to deal with my "chinese coltri", I wrote to coltri and told them of the counterfeit and asked if they were interested in dealing with it. I supplied emails, pictures and would have supplied the compressor to them. I was offered stony silence. So much for wanting to protect their product, I was very disappointed. I was prepared to give them all the evidence and help with any prosecution. Now if I follow your logic they should have been incensed as it reflects badly on their product. To me it was an exact "visual" copy, and yet they didn't even give me the decency of a reply.

Whilst I appreciate your frustration, you cannot paint all suppliers with the same brush. Unfortunately its up to the consumers to sort out the wheat from the chaff.
If I were to apply your logic to my situation, I would have to say anything that looks like a coltri sucks as they are all bad, but clearly this is rubbish. The genuine article is probably a good product, but the chinese look alike I bought is crap at best (and that's from experience).

As I said I have one of the P21 stainless refillable cartridges and am happy with the product and the engineer is willing to make me a stainless version for my personal filter. From my perspective the product speaks volumes and is not just hearsay.

Just because an item is cheap, doesn't mean its bad. If its manufactured badly, regardless of price then its bad and crap.

I like that you are trying to supply quality product and a cheap price, that's what business is all about, but unfortunately the customer choses, regardless of your intent or desire to provide a good product.

 

[ti325v]

I am not going to far into this debate, I will stick with the O.P. and add just 2 cents on what Iaian/HSM said, and I will say he has a proven track record of knowing his business. I also believe you are scare mongering. You can get crap air out of any compressor if it is not run/maintained properly. The filter insert is NOT a high pressure vessel. Heck I make them out of clear plastic tubing and repack them. I also have OCA from them, please...scare tactics suck. Spend the time educating your end users...that was the problem in your last post. The shop did not know what they were doing. BTW I have both Bauer and Coltri compressors, they both compress air. The bauer is built beautifully the coltri not so much, but they both compress air. I believe the Bauer will be much more durable in the long term, but I knew that going into both purchases. Also, if you are sending out your coltri systems with the OEM combination final filter and moisture separator, I believe you are not "At least I know when I send out a machine it has a adequate filtration system specced as standard" That set up is wrong from the start. Look, there is another dive shop just around the corner from me, running a mariner with p-21 in a tropical location, the rings are so shot it blows more oil then water, and I am sure his oil is full of water, so the compressor is luckily not long for this world. His air stinks, but his customers do not notice, so why should he care ? I have an OCA cert hanging on my wall, 99.9 % of my customers do not care.

 

[clownfishsydney]

I have been using a repackable filter for my Junior II for almost 10 years and over 3,690 fills. I source non-Bauer materials for it. Have I died? No! Why? Because the materials I am using are sufficient (if not better) than the Bauer materials. This includes oil, carbon, molecular sieve and pads.

Do not let one negative person put you off purchasing a repackable filter.

 

[scubastevesa]

Hey Guys
I am all for re packables ! don't get me wrong - that is one of the plus points of the Coltri
Most of you who have responded are pumping for your own personal use - so Yes you will be sourcing the best materials for your filters
And yes i have a machining shop friend who makes up cartridges for Non standard compressors ie Hamworthy Bristol and Paramina
Which i then supply the MS and AC and felt pads for

But the point i was making that the material that goes into these filters needs to be correct

As most of my clients are shops / resorts, their air quality needs to be 100 %

I want to prevent for other people the occurrence I had of breathing off filters that were not packed with the correct materials

My goal is clean air and safe operation - I do this with a constant drive of education

I don't mind if people use mine or Lawrence Factor filters !!! as long as they are changing these filters ( in fact myself and local Lawrence factor agent are good mates and have long chats about the operators out there taking shortcuts to save a buck -

Is the guy who started this thread using the correct materials ? I don't know he hasn't enquired with myself or Lawrence Factor to buy the re pack materials

Seeing as he will be selling these to dive shops and resorts - who will be checking that the correct materials go in ?

One just needs to look at my pictures from a earlier post to see what goes on if people don't know what they are doing and put any old materials in

---------- Post added February 9th, 2015 at 07:57 AM ----------

Hi Peter

I hear you on your frustration with the Chinese copy

I have seen a few of them and they have made my blood boil - a blatant rip off

Imagine you were Coltri Italy - how do you think you would even begin to stop them ?

Who do you take to court ? - where do you hold this ? in what language ? at what cost

Just for them to move shop and open up down the road next week with a new sticker on the units

Most of this knock off industry is state sponsored - it is economic war across all sectors - virtually all products have a bad clone out there

Sorry that you bought one ( and PS i wrote a piece locally Quoting you on why not to buy a Chinese knock off )

So - thanks for your efforts to make them aware of it

And as i always tell prospects - don't take my word for things - go out and speak to my existing clients and find out their experiences and base their purchase decision on what they say

 

[pommiediver]

hi,
durban diver with mariner11 compressor, p21 filter, yes i would be interested in refillable p21 filter

rgds
p

 

[Peter69_56]

Try this as wellhttp://www.ebay.com.au/itm/P21-Repackable-Refillable-Filter-for-SCUBA-Diving-Bauer-Compressor-most-small-/261779814530?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item3cf34af882

---------- Post added February 18th, 2015 at 11:49 PM ----------

Can anyone tell me the content of the following cartridge Filter Cartridge FOR Undersea Personal Filter Electric Coltri Compressor MCH 6 | eBay . I believe it is a 0520 replacement cartridge that suits a number of personal filters as well as the Coltri MCH-6 compressor.

I change my cartridges by weight given MS absorbs 20% water by weight when fully used. Thus knowing the amount of MS in the filter tells me how much it weighs when completely used. I have been told it has 28gm, but also told it has 25gm of MS and 20gm AC. I have approximately measured the volume and it is MS 57mm x 27mm, AC 83mm x 27 mm. volume. My cartridges weigh 105gm total volume unused.

 

[Kyle@Aqua-Air]

Hi there pommiediver, we're a company with head offices in Durban and we do a 316 stainless steel refillable cartridge with refills to replace the Bauer P21 cartridges.
its easy to fill and a lot cheaper then most others on the market.
We are a Large company specializing in breathing air all over the world and we use pharmaceutical grade Molecular sieve and Activated carbon from our larger towers that we supply to all our NetCare hospital clients.
here is a link to our website.
AquaAir Scuba Filtration - Zantech


if you would any help or have any question or would like a brochure don't hesitate to email me
kyle@zantech.co.za

 

[gmass]

As the Coltri agent in South Africa -
Ii am very wary of these people who have a lathe and suddenly they want to start supplying the industry
Have their parts been tested and approved to international standards ?
Are the materials that they supply for re packing been tested and approved
Too often in this country i see people taking shortcuts
ie supplying molecular sieve and activated carbon of industrial air grade being marketed as breathing air quality
and then decanting oil and selling it as original equipment

so people - beware of these fly by nights with pirate parts - usage of them in my Coltri machines will invalidate your warranties

and I am probably cheaper than these guys i can be contacted off coltri website in south africa for further help

My apologies for the late reply. Regarding the post by SA's Coltri agent, yes you are right, you have to be weary of fly by night companies looking to make a quick buck, and I can safely say that we are not one of them. Our products at AQUA-AIR (a division of Zan-Tech) have been tested by a reputable PADI centre and our material is of pharmaceutical grade. Our company primarily specializes in breathing air applications for the Netcare hospitals as well providing systems for industrial organizations such as Sapref, Sasol, Eskom, Mondi, Dunlop, and so on.

If anyone is interested please view our site here: AquaAir Scuba Filtration - Zantech

Feel free to drop me an email at gareth@zantech.co.za for an enquiry

 

[iain/hsm]

SNIP

1, You have to be weary of fly by night companies looking to make a quick buck, and I can safely say that we are not one of them.

2, Our products have been tested by a reputable PADI centre

3, and our material is of pharmaceutical grade.

We shall see, time will tell but It's one thing offering filter chemical. Its quite another proving assurance to your three claims.

In many ways Bauer and Coltri have it quite easy. They as the original manufacturer can sell any old chemical matrix and as long as the filter chemical they supply met on test a recognised breathing air standard its good to go.

Granted Coltri clearly don't have a clue regarding filtration and copy Bauer and as others follow Coltri we get a degrading spiral, but it's still good to go as they are the original manufacturer regardless of the quality of the chemical they provide.

However you are not a OEM and for a third party coming along it's a much tougher market to convince and I am not convinced your up for the task, to begin with for the following reasons:

1. Tested by a reputable PADI Centre.

2. Our material is of pharmaceutical grade

You need to elaborate further on your two statements as they are at present meaningless rubbish and dangerous misinformation.

Both your statements above IMHO clearly show you don't understand the requirements required here, further you fail to appreciate the level of detail and assurance required coupled with a complete lack if information required for a customer to make an informed choice

My advise sadly in the light of being offered such small detail of information would be to stick with the OEM Bauer or Coltri brands for present. Iain

---------- Post added June 11th, 2015 at 09:58 AM ----------

SNIP

We use pharmaceutical grade Molecular sieve and Activated carbon from our larger towers that we supply to all hospital clients.

Please understand that the filtration chemical qualities, performance and structure for designing for a diving filtration application are not the same as your large hospital filtration market and to the best of my knowledge you must be the only "large" supplier I know that has made such a uninformed misguided and frankly foolish claim. Sorry to say. Iain

 

[ti325v]

Kick some a$$ Iain....and for anybody that doubts Iains qualifications to make any statements like this, well the man is an absolute authority, right up there with Peter Mouldey. (Aka Swampdiver)..if this guy says it, you can take it as gospel.
I also got a chuckle with the "Local PADI dive shop tested it" line.
That gives me little faith, I have worked in a bunch of local PADI shops.
I stick to my statement about OEM filtration, especially the base model coltris. It is simply junk. Might work for a home user, but any kind of commercial setting. Pathetic, not that some of the Bauer are a heck of a lot better.
You may well have a great product but all concerns raised are legitimate and things you should address before marketing these products...The SA distributor did not look to clever complaining about air produced by his machines....
BTW, I do repack, and pump Mod E and quite often OCA with out any hyper filtration.