Regulator breathes much harder when inverted

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Guys, y'all gonna have to whip DA up a bit more than this flaccid response to provide us some good entertainment because if you are depending on me you are out of luck as I simply am in no shape or willingness to give fight. I am much to busted and broken and scuffed and rumpled up for the usual game, sorry I am not up to my usual ability to enrage everybody and make you all want to pull your hair out after smacking me smartly with a 2X4 (and I mostly deserve it and finally got it :rofl3:)

Maybe in a few weeks I will be more fit for the fight.

Love, :blinking:
N

Wow, the Nemrod mellows......:wink: Never thought I'd see the day.

One of these years I'll hopefully get to a sandog and have the chance to meet the doublehose usual suspects.
 
The Scubapro D400 you cite is nothing more than a bottom exhaust pilot valve with a concentric diaphragm — functionally no different than the side exhaust pilots.

This is not correct. The D series regulator has a coaxial exhaust, and a balanced spool valve, not a pilot valve. It is completely different than side exhaust regs, pilot or otherwise.

IP enters the D series regs into a coaxial valve shaped a little like a dumbell; one end is the seat and the other is the balancing spool. It's an ingenious design that allows the reg to have a slight downstream bias while still providing very efficient air balancing.

Actually, from an engineering view, the D series regs are one of SP's best accomplishments, and it's a shame they have not continued producing them.
 
As matt boy suggests, the D400 uses a center balanced valve not a pilot or servo valve.

The D400 also differs from side exahust valves in one other respect. The diaphragm angle combined with the coaxial exhaust valve results in the best case CGF scenario occurring in the normal smimming position and the worst case CGF scenario occuring in a position a diver will seldom be in.

So in short, the CGF effect is limited to no more than about .5", the occurs in the worst case position and in the normal swimming position, the effect is basically .0".
 
Wow, the Nemrod mellows......:wink: Never thought I'd see the day.

One of these years I'll hopefully get to a sandog and have the chance to meet the doublehose usual suspects.

Nah, he is just recovering from a high speed dog vs bicylce fight and on serious drugs now, not to worry, he will be back in fighting shape shortly.


Sand Dog VIII is April 16-23 and there are spots available-plenty of time to plan to join us.
 
This is not correct. The D series regulator has a coaxial exhaust, and a balanced spool valve, not a pilot valve. It is completely different than side exhaust regs, pilot or otherwise.

IP enters the D series regs into a coaxial valve shaped a little like a dumbell; one end is the seat and the other is the balancing spool. It's an ingenious design that allows the reg to have a slight downstream bias while still providing very efficient air balancing.

Actually, from an engineering view, the D series regs are one of SP's best accomplishments, and it's a shame they have not continued producing them.

I stand corrected, I have not looked at a D400 in many years so I bow to your statement. I didn’t remember the details and took a quick look at an illustration on page 78 of Scuba Regulator Savy, which shows a coaxial diaphragm with a mushroom valve in the center. It is not identified specifically as the D400, but I "assumed" it since it is the only regulator ever produced I am aware of with that case geometry. I confused the demand valve with another regulator of the time.

One of the engineers on a hat development project looked it when it came out. He reported that flow rates and cracking pressures didn’t perform any better than the regulators in use. Everyone lost interest after that. It is ironic that the best performing second stage regulator available today is a highly refined iteration of an early 1970s US Divers unbalanced bottom exhaust single hose.
 
As matt boy suggests, the D400 uses a center balanced valve not a pilot or servo valve.

The D400 also differs from side exahust valves in one other respect. The diaphragm angle combined with the coaxial exhaust valve results in the best case CGF scenario occurring in the normal smimming position and the worst case CGF scenario occuring in a position a diver will seldom be in.

So in short, the CGF effect is limited to no more than about .5", the occurs in the worst case position and in the normal swimming position, the effect is basically .0".

How is that different than a coaxial diaphragm or radial side exhaust? The D400 exhaust is about 2" lower, but the exhaust/diaphragm and center mass of lung are virtually the same in a near horizontal "swimming position" — a few degrees up it is better, and few degrees lower it is worse.

Regardless, I don't understand your reservations about the statements made.

From your case geometry link, I believe we both agree that the pressure differential the body's air filled cavities are exposed to is determined by regulator depth, regardless of design. Exhalation pressure is determined by the depth of the high-point of the exhaust valve and flow resistance while inhalation resistance is a function of supply valve flow resistance and hysteresis. Any regulator position in a given position in the water has a neutral pressure.

I contend that the observations made by Onewolf in the original post cannot be explained by case geometry.

While conducting a test of running out of air in the swimming pool last week, I noticed that both my primary reg (Atomic B1) and secondary air (Atomic SS1) were much harder to breath when I was laying on my back versus any other position. I was curious if this is normal and what causes this regulator behavior?

Thanks.

Doug

I believe that Onewolf is describing his perceived increased work of breathing, which is a physiological measurement, caused by hydrostatic pressure differential between his respiratory center mass and airway. The experience is nearly the same even if his head were out of the water to lip level. That increased breathing effort is far in excess of anything that can be explained by positional characteristics his two different Atomic second stages. I believe that is valid since he didn't indicate any perceived difference between the bottom exhaust B1 and the side exhaust SS1.

I also contend that no regulator design currently or previously on the market would reduce that perceived work of breathing. To illustrate my assertion, I was part of a project to develop a lightweight commercial helmet. There are two demand regulator approaches. The most common is with the demand regulator's diaphragm exposed to water like the Kirby-Morgan gear. The second is to install the regulator entirely inside the hat and impart a delta P on the diaphragm between hat pressure and inside the oral-nasal mask or a mouth breathing tube.

Either approach effectively puts the diver's entire head inside the regulator housing, sealed around the neck. The second design eliminates all factors relevant to the case geometry fault analysis. Work of breathing is equivalent to standing upright in a swimming pool, with the water level around jaw level, and breathing from a regulator. The end result was the difference in the two designs was measurable, but too small to matter in situ.

The worst part of the whole exercise was the final report included a statement to the effect that lightweight helmets can never produce as low a respiratory work load as traditional deep sea rig/heavy gear without positive assisted breathing. I have an aging mentor from the deep sea gear era that still gives me crap about that. I suppose I deserve it for never giving him any slack about his Civil War "technology".

If we agree this far, please let me know where my statements were incorrect or misleading. If you do not agree, please explain the error. Nobody wants to put out bad information.
 
The jury rig in the post above allowed me to really exaggerate the position of the 2nd stage in relation to the divers mouth/lungs. With the reg held straight out at mouth level, it breathe normally. With the reg as far below my head as the rig would allow, it was pushing air into my mouth (but not freeflowing) quite strongly and exhaling was quite a bit of work. It was hard to tell much difference with the reg just a few inches below my mouth level but if I removed the end of the tube from my mouth it freeflowed (as it should). With the reg held as high above my head as the rig allowed it inhaled with extreme difficulty but felt like it was sucking the air out of my lungs when I exhaled.

While I am sure there are some case geometry considerations in the change of WOB with the changes of body position, I suspect the dominant is simply due to the changes in pressure in the water column and the pressure difference between the 2nd stage diaphragm, exhaust valve, and the diver's mouth. I also suspect that it is the position of the mouth rather than the diver's lungs. I say this because it seems like breathing through a snorkel while floating on the surface is unaffected by whether the diver's body is horizontal or vertical.

One other observation: When the unsecured mouthpiece on the air end of the snorkel pops of while you are breathing, the rig does breath a bit wet.
 

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