Religion?

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cudachaser once bubbled...
70 ft underwater on Sunday morning
At the end we pass around the collection liftbag:wink:

I'm sure you will receive high marks on that one SeaJay. An excellent work I must say. :D
That was one class I hated as well. It was basically 16 weeks of people arguing as to why their religion was better. The professor looked like Tweal from South Park trying to keep the class on topic. I just sat in the back and laughed most of the time.:D
 
gzscuba once bubbled...
So Seajay, what major are you that a religion class is mandatory, or is it a school or university-wide requirement? I took a class on religion as part of my undergrad work (an elective) and found it rather interesting & fun. Especially when people tried to push their beliefs in the class... it got rather amusing. But it also gave a unique insight into how people think & deal with certain issues. Good thing I have plenty of down-time at work today - I'll be able to read through this manifesto of the cult of Seajay :wink:

Hahahhaaaaa!!! "The Cult of SeaJay." Hahahhaaaaa!!!

Yeah, it's some sort of stupid university-wide requirement. This degree is in Business Management... Which will turn into Business Administration in about three semesters, which will turn into an MBA two semesters after that.

Religion sucks. :eek:ut:
 
Seajay...

Go and think about this with an open mind, I mean it, really take some time to let this sink in before responding...

You have mentioned several times in this thread that you "hate religion" and hated your class etc. I ask you this, what is different between "religion" and your recent "conversion/prosteletyzing" regarding DIR.

You are taking the religion class, take a look at the similarities and parallels between "religion" and "cultic behavior" and line them up against what you have gone through over the last several months with DIR. Really look at your posts from last week where everything got way out of hand and consider the mindset and behaviours in light of your class.

I am not posting this with any answers or inherent criticisms, I'm just asking you to step back from yourself a bit and see if the view changes.

Please don't take this as a flame, it is not my intent. I'm opening the dialogue hopefully to another level.
 
Don't you think you should have posted this in an NDR area?

~SubMariner~
 
No problem.


You are taking the religion class, take a look at the similarities and parallels between "religion" and "cultic behavior" and line them up against what you have gone through over the last several months with DIR. Really look at your posts from last week where everything got way out of hand and consider the mindset and behaviours in light of your class.

Fair enough.

According to what we learned in my Religion course, and according to Dr. Thomas Creely (or professor) and the book which he taught from (Experiencing the World's Religions by Michael Molloy), a "cult" becomes a "cult" instead of a "religion" when it posesses the following five characteristics:

1. Absolute truth claims: The leaders seek to "prove" their religion, and have no tolerance for any other viewpoint. Anyone else who disagrees with the viewpoint is said to be completely wrong.

2. Blind obedience: Leaders in the cult stress complete and blind obedience to the religion, discouraging questions and villifying those who seek answers. They praise those who follow without questioning, and encourage others to do so.

3. Establishing an ideal time: Cult leaders stress a reason why it is important to join the cult NOW, and urge those to not wait to do so. Typically, a cult leader will stress an upcoming cataclysmic event, such as an apocolypse or the coming of a messiah, and urge people to quickly become a part of the cult.

4. The end justifies any means: Cult leaders stress that death, personal sacrifice, loss of family and loved ones, or even the loss of personal identity means nothing by comparison of the cult's ideals. The cult leaders Jim Jones and David Koresh both were masters of convincing people that the end justified any means.

5. Declaring a holy war: Cult leaders declare holy war; that is, they take an offensive stance against those who are not of the same belief as their own cult, and seek to destroy them.

...So my question to you is... How does DIR stand up to these definitions of a cult? Sure, there are absolute truth claims, at least in terms of scuba diving... So it may match up nicely with #1... But GUE has never discouraged blind obedience... In fact, they very much encourage questioning! DIR doesn't do well with #3, either... Rather than encourage people to "become DIR" as quickly as possible, the exact opposite is true... They encourage people to take their time and learn very slowly

In terms of "the end justifying any means," that one doesn't hold up much either... GUE knows that this is just SCUBA, man... They say early in the DIR-F class that the #1 goal is to have FUN... There's no inkling of the "end justifying any means." To me, in fact, it seems that GUE people take DIR a lot more LIGHTLY than those people who are not DIR! At least, that's been my experience.

Lastly, to be a "cult," GUE would have to declare a "holy war..." Something which is silly to even think about. To the best of my knowlege, GUE is not about to go to war with anyone.

...So how's DIR do in terms of being a cult or having "cultic behavior," as you say? Not very well. By comparison, think about your favorite NFL fan up the street... You know, the one with the GIANTS football jersey, the bumper sticker, and the one who's life comes to a complete halt every time "his team" plays a game... By comparison, there's much more cult-like behavior in that!

So to respond to your post... I've thought about it with an open mind, and yes, I still hate religion. And no, DIR is no more a religion and displays no more "cultic behavior" than your average NFL fan.

However, if you ask the NFL guy who his favorite NFL team is, he's gonna tell you... And tell you why! If someone asks a question about diving, I'm going to give them the answer that I've seen work best for me... The DIR answer.

Simple.
 
Here's a bit more to chew on...I didn't stress cult...I stressed religion...

One of the things which is really interesting with many people who have experienced a religious experience or a religious conversion is that they are completely estatic about what happened and often have the desire to share it with as many people as possible. They have found "the truth" and as often as not have the "personal experience" to support what they have been show and taught...don't write-off religion as being unreasoned, but that's a topic for another day...anyhow, if you look at your own personal expression of how DIR has changed your life and all the other accompanying lifestyle changes you have recently made you could say that you too have undergone a "religious conversion" of sorts.

When you have seen how right and perfect DIR is in your own experience, and you have internalized it. It becomes almost impossible not to share it with everyone else. What happens however is that people on the outside who perhaps have had different experiences or are skeptical look at "the converted" as raving nuts...especially if they have only recently "seen the light". Last week, a huge thread got really out of hand...we don't need to rehash it all but you did ask the question..."what did I do wrong" and "I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I just don't see what I did wrong." This was interesting to watch from the outside.

Think of how you used to call DIR adherents Nazi's, now what do you think? How has your vision been changed? What do you now want to share? How come everyone else doesn't get it...it's obviously better both on paper and in practice isn't it? Why are people offended even by the name DIR? Why are some DIR adherents seen as being outright offensive in their demeanor by everyone and others are seen as being the most amazing and open individuals? Why is the message sometimes lost? How could it be communicated better?

Hmmm, some of these same questions can be turned around towards religion as well...interesting isn't it.


Note...this thread should be moved to non-diving related...we're way past that now.
 
The problem with religion isn't the religion. It's the followers that are the problem. That holds true for Christianity, Islam, etc. As well as DIR.

I don't have a problem with DIR. I actually like it and am in the process of adopting it. I do, however, have a problem with the Georgehova Witnesses that won't let me look at a doubles set up at a show without preaching to me about how DIR changed their life and how I should allow Halcyon into my heart and become Saved as well.

I was subjected to that both at EE and at the Wrecks clinic that Metro West had a month or so back. The guy at EE was talking trash about my cave instructor, and the guy at Wrecks was obviously a newly minted DIRf graduate.

Like a lot of Christians, I felt that they were doing more harm to their cause than good.

Stop the preaching. Answer questions. Let them come to you. That's my philosophy regarding all of this stuff.
 
Friends we are gathered hear today to discuse the sins of diving.

I say verily, repent your evil ways. The sin of diving lead only to death. The good book says thou shalt not dive wet with steel and the computer shall rot your brain.

Repent before its to late. The peril of diving comes as a thief in the night. Turn from your wicked ways. Do not fornacate with a poodle Jacket or yoke yourself with a unbeliving stroke. This leads only to death.

Narrow is the path to inlightenment and caves. Many may try to enter the gate but few will live to pass back through the gate. All have been measured by GI and JJ and all have been found wanting. I say repent and lead your Life in the ways of the GUE.

Repent and leave behind your evil ways. Cast aside your tech style back inflate BC with 10 d-rings and take up the mantle of the simple bp/wing. Leave behind your splits and take up the path of the Jet fins. If your dive eq offends its is better to pluck it out than to use it in comfort say it the Good Book. Do away with your worldy flutter kick so that you may be found blaimless and clean purified by the frog kick. Go forth and offer not the earthly short hose, give to your brother in need the Long hose for deep and narrow is the cave sayith the good book.


We say this in the name of GUE, Amen!


Geek
 
Your intellect and clarity are rare and beautiful things. I'm glad you're part of this community. Whenever the mean-spirited flames start flying in the future, I'll remind myself that you're here too.

bwerb once bubbled...
Seajay...

Go and think about this with an open mind, I mean it, really take some time to let this sink in before responding...

(SNIP FOR THE SALE OF BANDWITH CONSERVATION)

Please don't take this as a flame, it is not my intent. I'm opening the dialogue hopefully to another level.
 
Pardon me but....:D

I'm gonna give my "Two-cents" too much.:D

I think that every topic that every person is passionate about could resemble "cultic behavior" when it is expressed.

However, I don't think that it was said that DIR or GUE is/are a "Cult(s)" by comparison to definition, but merely that those who are passionate about DIR and GUE could possibly exhibit "cultic behavior" when talking about either or both.

"Anyone else who disagrees with a viewpoint is said to be completely wrong." This cultic behavior takes place all the time.

"They praise those who follow without questioning, and encourage others to do so." This too.

"Cult leaders stress a reason why it is important to join...NOW" This too.

I could go on but my point is that many of us exhibit "cultic" like behavior when we think that our beliefs are right and we want to get that point across to others wether it is "I hate religion", or "God is real", or "DIR is the right way" or "Scr*w DIR and it's Nazis."

It is important to appreciate others and their beliefs as individuals regarless of if we actually believe the same and respect others for there differences. Go ahead and make your mental notes and every now and then vocalize your options.

Keep writing SeaJay you do it so well. But remember what a strong word hate is. And, religion doesn't mean "Bible Thumping", "Holy Rolling", or "Hell-fire and brimstone."

Religion is the belief in and reverence for a supernatural power recognized as the creator and governor of the universe.

Think about that statement. It doesn't even have the word "GOD" in it.

Ok. Maybe 2 cents 2 much...maybe not.

"Things that make you go...HUMMM" :wink:
R
 

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