Richie Kohler accused of looting

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You're not convincing me, however. I don't see the hugely great thing about historical identification. The world isn't going to end because we can't attach a name to a rusting ship.

I mean I understand mike likes to do that, and I think its worthwhile, and I'd like to see him continue to do what he does. But if you make it a choice between mike doing identification, and me being able to dive wrecks in a more pristine state, I'll take the latter.

Some might say that your "me" point of view is just as selfish as someone recovering artifacts, whether for personal reasons or to identify a wreck. And if that is your steadfast position, so be it. But should you not be protesting archaeologists as well as wreck divers? Many of their projects they are recovering diagnostic artifacts. Why did you not protest or at least voice a complaint with the USN/NOAA for recovering the turret, engine, etc. off the USS MONITOR when I am sure you and others (myself included) would have rather seen it resting in situ on the wreck? What about the bell from the EDMUND FITZGERALD - should it not have remained in place? What about the amphora Bob Ballard recovered in the Med?

There are no easy answers and there really needs to be compromise in many instances. Some wrecks need to be fully and completed protected, others not so much.
 
There are no easy answers and there really needs to be compromise in many instances. Some wrecks need to be fully and completed protected, others not so much.

Mike, I agree about the compromise. From your posts however, I did not get the sense you wanted to compromise. Can you tell me from your position, what does this compromise look like....

thanks

Layne
 
Mike, I agree about the compromise. From your posts however, I did not get the sense you wanted to compromise. Can you tell me from your position, what does this compromise look like....

thanks

Layne

Hi Layne-
I posted an article I drafted about the issue earlier in this thread. It discusses many of the issues related to shipwreck management. Again, it can be found here:
Association of Underwater Explorers - "Lost at Sea"
I have worked on a few archaeological projects, including the USS MONITOR and the QUEEN OF NASSAU. The latter was a wreck I dived and immediately recognized as something unique and special, and deserved more attention. It turned out to be the second most historical vessel in Canadian maritime history (according to several Canadian historians), and has interesting ties to Florida history. IMHO, those types of wrecks should be protected.
As a diver, it would be nice to see the MONITOR "intact" as I saw it before major work started (seeing the turret underwater on the wreck was awesome), but I understand that many more people can learn and enjoy it being recovered, conserved, and displayed. Because I thought it was important and needed to be protected, studied, etc., I gladly volunteered to work on three MONITOR expeditions.
I won't get into the potential hypocrisy related to "war grave" site status.
In contrast, I don't see the logic or need to bestow the same type of management on a Liberty ship or tanker that was sunk in WWII, potentially salvaged by the War Administration, wire dragged, or demolished with explosives, and is in an exposed open-ocean environment. They are not unique and not historically significant, IMHO.

As an archaeologist, how do you view compromise?
 
As an archaeologist, how do you view compromise?

First, let me make a clarification - A lot of what we are talking about are metal wrecks (of one form or another) with substantial remains. Not including the Great Lakes or other cold fresh water environments, most historic wrecks are almost completely buried. The wrecks I am mostly interested in are wooden hulled ships that don't last long in an oxygen environment. They become more protected once they are sealed off. Remember the 1685 wreck I talked about - 1.5 million artifacts with 1/3 of the hull which were all recovered.

OK, the compromise - Here in Texas we have included the dive community by training several to become archaeological stewards. There are 6-7 people, each with a particular area along the Texas coast that are called into service when needed. So, if someone reports a shipwreck, the state marine archaeologist will notify the appropriate person for that area and that person will organize a small team to go investigate and report back.

No, their expenses are not covered. The state just does not have the money.

They are not authorized to remove anything however. Again, if they start digging into the remains and open up the 'time capsule,' deterioration will start again jeopardizing what remains are there. These teams will do a preliminary survey, sometimes with the state marine archaeologist and sometimes without. They will take whatever photos they can and then report back their findings.

If appropriate, the state marine archaeologist will then go visit the site with the same team member and other archaeologists to investigate further and possibly remove artifacts (Yes, I know the site is now open) for diagnostic analysis. The site will also be reburied if no further action is required. The artifacts removed will have their provenance recorded as well as be completely conserved for future study.

Also, I do and will continue to work with and for Private organizations to help survey, excavate and conserve shipwreck remains. There will always be private groups doing this kind of work and I would like to be there to give whatever advice I can. And, we do use a lot of divers (wreck divers, tech divers and recreational divers) depending on the site and conditions. If a private group wants to do all the work, there has to be a plan to conserve and protect everything that is removed. I think to many times people just pull stuff without any kind of real plan.

I teach underwater archaeological workshops as a agency (SSI/ NAUI) specialty course in central Texas. I provide divers with avenues to volunteer. I educate them on the need for keeping a shipwreck site intact. I teach about provenance which to me is extremely important.

I don't want anyone to be afraid of reporting a shipwreck. I just want to make sure everyone know the seriousness of removing artifacts and I feel that many simply take things because they want it without knowing the implications.

Lastly, back to your art analogy. You said it was the same if someone sold a painting vs someone who filed an admiralty claim. That is not what I was talking about. If you file a claim and are awarded the claim in court, then by all mean, do what you do. My comment was related more toward shipwrecks that are unknown and no claim made....

Layne
 
One other thing,

In your article, you state:

It should be stressed that those who do not have the proper knowledge and dedication required to properly conserve and restore shipwreck material should not be encouraged to recover artifacts from shipwrecks.

Can you tell me how to discourage these people. It is those individuals I am most worried about.
 
One other thing,

In your article, you state:

It should be stressed that those who do not have the proper knowledge and dedication required to properly conserve and restore shipwreck material should not be encouraged to recover artifacts from shipwrecks.

Can you tell me how to discourage these people. It is those individuals I am most worried about.

By basically informing them its not as simple as boating an artifact, but it will take a lot of time and money to properly stabilize it, conserve it, and restore it. For example, I tell them it cost me close to $1,000 to professionally restore an engine order telegraph I recovered -- which was only done after it had been under conservation for well over one year.

Recovery is the easy part, and I stress to them that they need to have the dedication to responsibly take care of what they recover. Otherwise I tell them to leave it on the bottom.

You do what you can...
 
but that in no way prevents them from doing anything. Just because they are told it is expensive does not mean they will not pick it up and take it home thinking they know what they are doing. Then they find out they don't and they toss it after it starts to fall apart...

yes, you do what you can I understand...
 
it seems that we have reached a compromise :)
 
but that in no way prevents them from doing anything. Just because they are told it is expensive does not mean they will not pick it up and take it home thinking they know what they are doing. Then they find out they don't and they toss it after it starts to fall apart...

yes, you do what you can I understand...

peer pressure does work.

now if we can get you to encourage your peers to improve accessiblity of publications and collection inventories, maybe we can make some inroads between the two of us.

:)
 
peer pressure does work.

now if we can get you to encourage your peers to improve accessiblity of publications and collection inventories, maybe we can make some inroads between the two of us.

:)

LOL, peer pressure really doesn't work on my end. The 1685 wreck I was talking about was excavated in 1997-98. I am still waiting on the final report as well. Not saying archaeologists are any better.

I think it is the individual not the discipline...
 
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