Running low on air and failed safety stop

[TONY CHANEY]

Maybe too late, time wise after a long and hard days work, but... You did the right thing! The other diver and you are both OK. You really could have gave us a lot of needed knowledge pertaining to your dive. i.e. max depth, total bottom time, conditions (currents, salt, temp, etc.), gas used, number of dives that day, were you pushing the NDLs / MOD, etc. The difference being, "I was diving air on a first dive, on a shallow wreck near the beach, perfect conditions and great vis., with a max depth of 40 feet and a run time of 30 minutes and 73 degree water temp." "I had great rest the night before, dive very often and well hydrated." "Then while on my safety stop of 18 feet this idiot..." Compared to, "I was diving trimix (list your blend) and had 100% for deco gas for a dive to 160' in a very cold quarry with very little to no vis." "It was our second dive today and we were all really chilled from the first dive." "I had went to bed late after have a few too many drinks with my buddies the night before." "I was on vacation and do not get to dive very often." All of this omitted information is very important! So thank God that the idiot and you are both aboce the surface tonight. Again, you did the right thing!


Now, about the computers. There really is not a good reason to use two computer that do not agree with each other....other than you are trying to do your best but the money gets in the way. But, with even that thought process you do not do it with tech dives. If these are the only computers you have then put one of them in gauge mode (bottom timer) have have tables with you and dive the other computer. Either way you truly have a backup plan.


Having had, and still own 3 Oceanic computers (2 of them are DataMax Pro Pluses) The good thing about them is that they will not lock you out while you are still diving. They will give you the "best guess" info until you hit the surface. IMHO, any computer that locks you out while you are still diving is like a friend letting you down when you need them the most! BTW, my two primary computers are VR technology and will almost always match up with a very slight difference due to one being on the left arm and the other being on the right arm.

Thanks for a very good and often needed thread.

 

[DaleC]

The problem with insisting people do things our way is that we don't always have all the information. What may seem to be an OOA or unreasonable panic may be a heart or asthma attack. Up north the full flooding of a drysuit would not have me doing a safety stop. Extreme vertigo, nausea or even the onset of a stroke are all situations that I would rather experience on the surface rather than at depth. Even panic, if not controlled, can pose a real threat to a diver, causing them to reject a working reg and/or hold their breath and embolize. Considering that NDL diving only really requires stops for edgy dives, which newer divers should not be doing, I would rather teach the lesson on the surface afterward and not by trying to restrain a diver.

I'm pretty sure that no where in the manual does it give anyone instructions to actually do that. From a purely legal POV (not that I really worry about those things), I wonder what the defense would be if a diver were injured or died as the result of being restrained underwater by a someone who "claimed" they were doing the right thing. Where would you point to as a reference.

I just scanned the PADI BOW manual and nowhere does it describe restraining a panicked diver. I also looked at GUE's "Doing It Right" by J.J. and while it says panicked ascents are dangerous for the diver, it also states "... Therefore, when dealing with a panicked diver, rescuers should avoid contact whenever possible" (Ch10, Pg 151), suggesting one should not attempt to restrain them underwater.

 

[BB`]

But it also doesn't say let the shoot up like a cork and drag you with them when they have hold of your octo.

 

[Peter69_56]

But it also doesn't say let the shoot up like a cork and drag you with them when they have hold of your octo.

My ascent was controlled even though he was going for the surface and was there before me. I did have the mooring line to help me regulate my ascent and his even though he was pulling on my occy. I would be interested in your thoughts on how one would prevent someone from pulling you to the surface given he was already past me and I was by that time attached to him in an uncontrolled manner, in particular had I have been on an smb rather than a mooring line?

---------- Post added January 3rd, 2015 at 08:16 PM ----------

Maybe too late, time wise after a long and hard days work, but... You did the right thing! The other diver and you are both OK. You really could have gave us a lot of needed knowledge pertaining to your dive. i.e. max depth, total bottom time, conditions (currents, salt, temp, etc.), gas used, number of dives that day, were you pushing the NDLs / MOD, etc. The difference being, "I was diving air on a first dive, on a shallow wreck near the beach, perfect conditions and great vis., with a max depth of 40 feet and a run time of 30 minutes and 73 degree water temp." "I had great rest the night before, dive very often and well hydrated." "Then while on my safety stop of 18 feet this idiot..." Compared to, "I was diving trimix (list your blend) and had 100% for deco gas for a dive to 160' in a very cold quarry with very little to no vis." "It was our second dive today and we were all really chilled from the first dive." "I had went to bed late after have a few too many drinks with my buddies the night before." "I was on vacation and do not get to dive very often." All of this omitted information is very important! So thank God that the idiot and you are both aboce the surface tonight. Again, you did the right thing!


Now, about the computers. There really is not a good reason to use two computer that do not agree with each other....other than you are trying to do your best but the money gets in the way. But, with even that thought process you do not do it with tech dives. If these are the only computers you have then put one of them in gauge mode (bottom timer) have have tables with you and dive the other computer. Either way you truly have a backup plan.


Having had, and still own 3 Oceanic computers (2 of them are DataMax Pro Pluses) The good thing about them is that they will not lock you out while you are still diving. They will give you the "best guess" info until you hit the surface. IMHO, any computer that locks you out while you are still diving is like a friend letting you down when you need them the most! BTW, my two primary computers are VR technology and will almost always match up with a very slight difference due to one being on the left arm and the other being on the right arm.

Thanks for a very good and often needed thread.

The deco consideration was a very minor issue for me given the diving depth and conditions and that one pc never went into deco. Had it have been my wife i would have bigger concerns seeing she is more susceptible to being bent.

Understand your comment re more info and will keep it in mind for future posts.

When I tech dive I use 2 petrels or petrel and gauge. I do appreciate everyone's comment re having pc the same. I do not consider it an issue given we always use the most conservative pc for ascent even if the other shows no deco. The dives are not long and I see no issue with staying down another few minutes because one pc is in deco. For some this may be herecy, however my diving with this combination is least risk approach and provides a backup (given it is normally NDL diving in this combination). I could dump the pro plus pc's and buy another 2 petrels but my funding is not unlimited and I don't see it reducing risk. It may be more consistent but not less risk. After all I could dive one pc only and no one would have commented on this. I think 2 same PC is an ideal situation but not necessarily critical in nominally NDL diving.

Had I stayed on the surface I am sure there would have been no issues for me re bends. My concern going back down was for my wife and to ensure her safety. And I don't mind saying had I to make a choice between her health or his, he would have come off second best (not that I would have felt good about it).

 

[scubadada]

I believe the OP did the right thing. The panicked diver already had his octo, it was too late to avoid contact with him. The risk of DCS for the OP was negligible, the Oceanic computer was within NDL, the Shearwater had a very short obligation. The OP helped ensure that the panicked diver made it to the surface to face his own fate, DCS, AGE, the outcome of a medical problem or escape, scot-free. It's easy for us all to sit back and second guess the OP, ask for more information, or play what if. You really have to be there and hope you have the wherewithal to do the right thing. I'm hoping the panicked diver thanked the OP for assisting him to the surface.

One can only hope that the panicked diver learned some lessons from this episode and will behave very differently when and if he dives again. The usual questions do keep nagging at me. How did the diver get so low on air that he panicked on the ascent, culminating in the encounter with the OP? I may have missed the answer to the previous question, but where was his buddy?

 

[DaleC]

But it also doesn't say let the shoot up like a cork and drag you with them when they have hold of your octo.

True, but the absence of a statement does not imply condoning the opposite action.

We often read certain ideas without considering if they are actually proscribed anywhere. In this case I decided to check the books to see if they actually said something like: "when dealing with a panicked diver, hold them at depth". None do.

In the OP's case, the choices are between risking a remote chance of getting bent (which could be resolved) by ascending with the diver vs restraining the diver or ripping the reg from their mouth (which could have dire consequences). It's not the situation we may seek out but sometimes life puts those sort of choices before us.

If someone is in cardiac arrest we are faced with the choice between rendering aid via CPR vs the remote risk of contracting a communicable disease. Similarly, if someone is bleeding out from a wound which requires direct pressure. Even someone asking directions on a street corner means we need to move out of our comfort zone to render aid. In this case a diver is experiencing some sort of physical/psychic event which is making them feel the need to seek the surface. Do we aid them by ascending against our own small safety stop obligation or leave them to fend for themselves. What is the cost to us vs the cost to them (which as thinking divers we should be able to understand easily throughout our dive).

I personally, would rather choose to dive with a person who made an error due to panic (which can be addressed by education) rather than a person who would turn a blind eye to rending reasonable aid (which speaks to character).

 

[Peter69_56]

I believe the OP did the right thing. The panicked diver already had his octo, it was too late to avoid contact with him. The risk of DCS for the OP was negligible, the Oceanic computer was within NDL, the Shearwater had a very short obligation. The OP helped ensure that the panicked diver made it to the surface to face his own fate, DCS, AGE, the outcome of a medical problem or escape, scot-free. It's easy for us all to sit back and second guess the OP, ask for more information, or play what if. You really have to be there and hope you have the wherewithal to do the right thing. I'm hoping the panicked diver thanked the OP for assisting him to the surface.

One can only hope that the panicked diver learned some lessons from this episode and will behave very differently when and if he dives again. The usual questions do keep nagging at me. How did the diver get so low on air that he panicked on the ascent, culminating in the encounter with the OP? I may have missed the answer to the previous question, but where was his buddy?

No I never saw the diver again after we surfaced and I asked him if he was ok and able to get to the boat and that was the last I saw of him. Had it been me I would have made an effort to speak to my rescuer, and as others have said, it shows a persons character when the proverbial hits the fan.

i think the dive guide realised he was low on air, may have given him his occy until they made the mooring line then sent him up the line. Although I don't know what was actually said to the diver after the event, the sad part is the denial that the diver missed his safety stop, rather than understanding what he did wrong and learning from it.

Where was his buddy, good question. I knew where my wife was and she knew where I was and knew I would come back down for her. We have a good understanding of each other.

 

[TSandM]

The problem with trying to keep a panic-stricken diver underwater is that they aren't rational. They may reject the regulator altogether. We had a death here 9 years ago like that -- the buddy pair initiated an airshare at depth, but partway through their ascent, the OOA diver rejected the regulator and bolted, and reached the surface dead.

I think in the OP's case, he had two choices -- assist the diver and follow him to the surface, or allow him to bolt without a regulator. I know that, had I been in that situation, I would have done precisely as the OP did. I would not have wanted the possible death of a fellow diver on my head. And I had missed the part that the OP's dive buddy was still in the water -- that would have made me do exactly as he did, and go back to do the deco with her. I believe in team; you do not desert your buddy for anything less than a dire emergency. He left her for exactly that, and came back when he could. Well done, in my book.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

After all I could dive one pc only and no one would have commented on this. I think 2 same PC is an ideal situation but not necessarily critical in nominally NDL diving.

Hey, I was not trying to cause any trouble but it was you that asked and provided the information. So, even if you do only dive one computer, I trust that you also have a watch or something else.

Either way, I am glad that you and the other diver are both safe.

 

[Peter69_56]

Hey, I was not trying to cause any trouble but it was you that asked and provided the information. So, even if you do only dive one computer, I trust that you also have a watch or something else.

Either way, I am glad that you and the other diver are both safe.

Tony, no offence taken, I respect other people's thoughts, differences of opinions and I think this point is worth discussing for everyone. If your opinion should differ from mine, we can discuss strongly and in the end agree to disagree and that's what I believe this forum is all about. Robust open discussion, while appreciating others right for their own opinions.

It's not often I dive only one PC these days and if I did it would be an ensured NDL dive and under these circumstances only have a pc with no other backup. Most NDL divers only have one PC and nothing more and nor do they need one as long as they follow simple rules: never allow yourself to edge dive close to your NDL, if your PC fails your dive is then aborted immediately. This is what is taught in most dive classes and appears accepted diving practice.

Under similar circumstances I see no need for me to be different. I chose to have 2 PC simply from my tech training, nothing more. As long as I also follow those rules I am no different to anyone else, now if I chose to either run close to my NDL or exceed it then I should have 2 PC, hence my reason for having 2 pc on the stated dive, all be they were different PC's