Scuba diver dies after being found floating at Kurnell, NSW, Australia

[Farback]

Had to laugh - had the same auto reflex to reach to check the j valve - even after not diving for over ten years. Local diving is in/around kelp so the habit was very very well ingrained. No SPG, so hitting the reserve and actually having it was important.

I still feel for the reserve Rod occasionally. This reminds me of how to recognize a firefighter. Whenever we hear the pre-alarm sound from an SCBA we instinctively shake our ass to silence it. It doesn't matter if we're in gear, in public or in seat at a theatre. Look for it.

 

[DandyDon]

Originally Posted by ScubaPink That she was a member of SB and respected by and helped moderators, owned her own dive shop in Thailand, etc is a reason to not speculate and discuss this tragedy is offensive to me.

I am sorry you are so offended by the protection she is supposedly receiving in this thread, but at the same time I am baffled by the accusation. I don't see it.

I think that ScubaPink was objecting to the objection of speculations. The sentance structure & a couple of typos made it challenging for me, but I think I got it.

 

[Doubler]

The truth of "Top Gun": I am not leaving my wingman

 

[tracydr]

... but there's a good example of what I'm trying to tell you ... your buddy shouldn't be at your fin. That's great for the buddy in the back ... but it SUCKS for the buddy in the front, because they can't see where their buddy is!

It's a major reason WHY there are so many buddy separations happening in scuba diving.

Do you really think that having one diver chasing another diver around constitutes a buddy team? It doesn't! Unless BOTH DIVERS can maintain contact with each other ... and have a mental commitment to maintaining communication and visual contact, YOU DON'T HAVE A BUDDY ... you have two solo divers swimming around in proximity to each other.

What you're describing amounts to one diver spending their entire dive chasing another diver, who isn't paying attention to them. That isn't buddy diving.

And ... realistically ... you have no idea what resulted in her death. Based on what I've read in this thread so far, neither does anyone else. All we have are some indicators of what MAY have caused it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

This is why PADI buddies are such poor buddies. From the very first dive in the pool,typical PADI formation is one in front,one in back. Then,you do the "follow the leader" tour guide tour around the quarry or lake when you get to open water. We've had one or two deaths,with Instructors being kicked out of PADI in the past year or two,because they were up front of the pack and lost sight of the last student. From the get-go, PADI classes are teaching poor positioning for buddies. Marcia is a PADI instructor. She obviously wasn't interested in being a buddy diver on this trip and perhaps didn't ever like to be a good buddy.
I dive with a PADI instructor as my buddy. We are forever fighting over positioning. I've learned,from a few dives with some DIR trained buddies, that shoulder to shoulder is more comfortable,easier to maintain and more FUN! I've been trying to change my buddy but changing a person who's been diving this way for over 20 years and more than 5,000 dives,its tough. I think,until he takes some GUE classes and hears it from somebody else, it isn't going to happen.

The other thing I've learned,having an instructor for a buddy. They think that they can work things out. Marcia had her drysuit class years ago and she probably thought she could work it out herself. Now, I for one, found that,even though my drysuit class was not only by the book but I had remedial classes because I didn't feel ready. I actually feel the PADI drysuit class could use a lot of beefing up. If I went years after my drysuit class before ever actually using it, I would absolutely get with a drysuit instructor or experienced user to go over the skills and practice in the pool. I certainly wouldn't go out with a bunch of non-drysuit divers and figure I could work it out! But, I think that's how some instructors are. Its part of being confident and competent in your everyday life and always being the one in charge.

 

[ScubaPink]

"A buddy at her fin" was just an expression. I mean being a buddy in the context of actually being a buddy- not sharing the same ocean. A person is usually the same under water as they are above it. Some people are attentive, others are not. Some people take risks, others do not. In diving, there are certain buddy protocols we were all taught. They are put in place for the safety of both divers. To my knowledge there is no number of logged dive requirements to then be able to take a course of solo diving. It is not recommended and in fact it is expressly forbidden. It goes against the rules. If you are in a buddy team and you have the expectation that your buddy, after discussion, is going to be a buddy in the sense of how we were taught, only to find out under water they are not, then you should bring it up and work to resolve it to both parties satisfactions and if it isn't resolved you should look for another buddy. At this point, some people choose to go it on their own. They do break the rules. They feel confident in their skills and take additional precautions to minimize the risk of solo diving. However, it is a risk and it goes against the rules. Rules that were written to best ensure a safe dive. You can have a pony. It won't do you any good if you find yourself blacking out for some unforseen medical anomaly. In that instance, you cannot aid yourself and no amount of self-reliance will save you because you are no longer conscious. However, if you had a buddy, who was doing as they were supposed to be doing, and they noticed your distress, they could make sure a reg stays in your mouth, get you to the surface and call for help as quickly as possible. Without a buddy in this scenario, you are sinking and breathing water. (most likely) Diving alone means there are some circumstances you could find yourself in for which you will not be able to survive. period. It does not mean you absolutely will survive with a buddy, but the chances are greatly increased if there is another person with you. No amount of experience or training can get you out of certain predicaments and that is all I am trying to say about this particular incident. I am aware that she obviously had other things going on. That is the point. All we an do is speculate as there was no one there to witness and share what happened. However, the reason I say not staying with the group was the ultimate cause of her death in this instance is.....if she had stayed with the group and she had her buddy and they were experienced divers in 10feet of water, odds are they would have reacted to whatever her issue(s) was and saved her life. I think solo divers "know" that but they do not really "believe" it. Each time you do it you become more confident doing it. Then, there is that one time.....that one or many unforseen things happen, and you realize, maybe too late, it would have been a really good idea to have another person looking into your face mask.

 

[boulderjohn]

This is why PADI buddies are such poor buddies. From the very first dive in the pool,typical PADI formation is one in front,one in back..

Interesting. I guess that is based on personal observation and so is not an example of a sweeping generalization. PADI issues about 900,000 certifications annually around the world. What percentage of those would you estimate you have seen?

As a PADI instructor, I teach otherwise. I guess I must be the only one.

 

[ScubaPink]

Interesting. I guess that is based on personal observation and so is not an example of a sweeping generalization. PADI issues about 900,000 certifications annually around the world. What percentage of those would you estimate you have seen?

As a PADI instructor, I teach otherwise. I guess I must be the only one.

My PADI instructor mentioned the "you lead I'll follow" hand signal (two fingers) suggestion by PADI but said we are not to do that and explained why it is not a safe way to dive. He said side-by-side is the only way to buddy dive. That is what he taught. So, you are not the only one.

 

[tracydr]

Interesting. I guess that is based on personal observation and so is not an example of a sweeping generalization. PADI issues about 900,000 certifications annually around the world. What percentage of those would you estimate you have seen?

As a PADI instructor, I teach otherwise. I guess I must be the only one.

Yes,it is my small estimate. I would say I've only seen a few hundred,based on my travels. And, I'm sure those,like you,who go on and get training from other agencies,end up adopting other habits as well. But, when I watch classes at our local pool and lake, I can say without fail,that the classes are led and that the buddies are learning to go in file,rather than shoulder to shoulder. Actually,many of those classes are SDI, so I guess I can't say its all PADI's fault.
This is clearly just my observation and Colorado might do things very differently. I learned in Texas,WA,CA,and Arizona and have dived in a few parts of the world. Just my impression. Sorry if that upsets you.
I'm thinking of two deaths off the top of my head,during OW classes. One was a quarry back east and another was a quarry in Canada,I believe. Both where the students were in single file tours with the instructor out front and no DM to follow in the rear. In both cases, the students were lagging behind their buddies, each buddy in single file as well from the way I understood.

 

[boulderjohn]

Can you point to anything in any PADI course that says that divers should dive single file?

 

[tracydr]

Well,see, there's one getting taught properly! But, again, the you lead,I'll follow hand signal is a hand signal I'm well familiar with. Why is that?

---------- Post added October 16th, 2013 at 03:45 PM ----------

Not a thing.
Can you tell me the way to the chow hall in the manual?

Can you point to anything in any PADI course that says that divers should dive single file?