Seacraft vs suex DPV

[L13]

I noticed something about the 2 most talked about scooters in recent times. They have something in common.

• The Blacktip's use off the shelf PTB batteries. Quickly replaceable by the owner, much cheaper that the other scooters batteries if you use Dewalt, and you can save another 60% off that with reputable off brands.
• The Genesis uses off the shelf 18650 cells. Quickly replaceable by the owner, for even less per Wh than the Dewalt's (comparable to the off brand PTB's, but with name brand cells).
• They both have really low maintenance costs/cost of ownership over time, and maintenance is mostly doable by the owner.

It seems the market is tired of expensive proprietary batteries/expensive maintenance, and, in the case of the Genesis, is willing to pay the difference for all the other features. In the case of the Blacktip, nothing else competes with it for affordability; until you need more why pay for it.

I recently bought a Blacktip, and love it! But, now that I have started down the cave diving path, I will probably upgrade to a Genesis right after I figure out how to afford a re-breather (unless an even better option comes out by then).

The other manufacturers are going to have to wake up to this trend, or go out of business. Right now, I wouldn't consider the Suex or Seacraft without a ~$3000-$4000 discount with respect to the Genesis

 

[Superlyte27]

Torque reduction systems exists. Namely stators.
It's simple the Seacraft is pretty much the only scooter you could steer with one finger or no hand at all actually. As much as I agree Genesis are impressive scooters, they are not as comfortable to ride.



I'm genuinely curious what kind of dives you do to even care ... I know nobody who cares about top speed. It's painful, uncomfortable. I would never want to even get close to it for any length of time. Short bust to catch up on a buddy fair enough.

It needs to be enough to pull 2 divers with full equipment (twinset/CCRs + stages), but you don't need the power of a speedboat. I've never seen or heard anyone to use a Seacraft or Genesis at their top speed for more than a few seconds. It's like comparing the top speed of Porsche vs Lamborghini and arguing which one can go faster on the highway... Makes no sense...

Range per Wh is what matters, in >90% of scenario you'll be cruising at around 150ft/min - 50m/min

I ride my Genesis hands free all the time at 50% power. You’ve never used one, and it shows.

 

[Superlyte27]

Torque reduction systems exists. Namely stators.
It's simple the Seacraft is pretty much the only scooter you could steer with one finger or no hand at all actually. As much as I agree Genesis are impressive scooters, they are not as comfortable to ride.



I'm genuinely curious what kind of dives you do to even care ... I know nobody who cares about top speed. It's painful, uncomfortable. I would never want to even get close to it for any length of time. Short bust to catch up on a buddy fair enough.

It needs to be enough to pull 2 divers with full equipment (twinset/CCRs + stages), but you don't need the power of a speedboat. I've never seen or heard anyone to use a Seacraft or Genesis at their top speed for more than a few seconds. It's like comparing the top speed of Porsche vs Lamborghini and arguing which one can go faster on the highway... Makes no sense...

Range per Wh is what matters, in >90% of scenario you'll be cruising at around 150ft/min - 50m/min

Plan a 10 hour dive with the deep portion at 300’ and you’ll use the top speed all the way to the back of the cave. When an extra 15 minutes means 45 more minutes of deco, you go as fast as you can.

 

[L13]

I decided to add the Dive-X options to my chart.

I added more info on batteries:

	Genesis 3.1	Seacraft Future 1000	Suex XJ-S	BlackTip Tech	CudaX Exploration
Replace batteries (USD$)	350	2700	2600	500**	1000**
Replace batteries (USD$)	350	2700	2600	200***	400***
				**Dewalt 12AHr	**Dewalt 12AHr
				*** off-brand 12AHr	*** off-brand 12AHr

 

[GF99/99]

Such as?

What unit?

And the issue I was raising is not what you can get away with - I’ve seen cars go 20,000 miles without an oil change. The issue is what is the manufacturer’s recommended maintenance schedule.

I have the older 2.1. I have changed the o-rings once just because (the old ones were fine) and apparently the washers on the tail cone are recommended to be change when they get excessive corrosion. No my case so I have never changed them.

I find the trigger gets a little sticky after a while but a little shot of silicon spray fixes it. Maybe every 30-40 dives I do this.

Other then that no much required but dont quote me on that best if you email Jon to get exact details.

400$ wouldn't ever cover the price of quality cells for 850Wh ... No accounting for any labor... Any material, equipment, or valuing your time. You can't compare.

Torque reduction systems exists. Namely stators.
It's simple the Seacraft is pretty much the only scooter you could steer with one finger or no hand at all actually. As much as I agree Genesis are impressive scooters, they are not as comfortable to ride.



I'm genuinely curious what kind of dives you do to even care ... I know nobody who cares about top speed. It's painful, uncomfortable. I would never want to even get close to it for any length of time. Short bust to catch up on a buddy fair enough.

It needs to be enough to pull 2 divers with full equipment (twinset/CCRs + stages), but you don't need the power of a speedboat. I've never seen or heard anyone to use a Seacraft or Genesis at their top speed for more than a few seconds. It's like comparing the top speed of Porsche vs Lamborghini and arguing which one can go faster on the highway... Makes no sense...

Range per Wh is what matters, in >90% of scenario you'll be cruising at around 150ft/min - 50m/min

Really what labor, materials, equipment and time???? you literally just flip the cells out and put new ones in. A monkey could do it.
Materials: I have the smaller battery so its 72 cells. On the high end they are $5 a cell so max you will pay is around $360 to fully replace your batteries.
Equipment: All you need is your fingers
Labor and time: might take your 30min. And for skill well if you cant pull and battery out of a battery tray and put a new one in you might want to rethink the whole diving thing.


For thrust have you actually used a scooter with a large backmounted CCR like a JJ plus 4 bailout while towing another diver wearing a full size CCR with 4 bailouts into current????? If so then you would know even with a Genesis sometimes you wish you had a little more. 2 divers with dry suites, 2 bulky rebreathers, and 8 s80 tanks, are not the most aerodynamic thing for a little scooter to pull.

Also as pointed out above you clearly have never ridden a Genesis. They are very much a "1 handed " operated scooter you can easily go no hands with them. It is one of the reason why I bought the Genesis the "felt twist" is nothing.

 

[L13]

Plan a 10 hour dive with the deep portion at 300’ and you’ll use the top speed all the way to the back of the cave. When an extra 15 minutes means 45 more minutes of deco, you go as fast as you can.

I haven't done a dive like this, but the math is obvious!

 

[stuartv]

It seems the market is tired of expensive proprietary batteries/expensive maintenance.

Personally, I would leave the "proprietary" part out of that and just focus on "expensive".

I don't expect to ever buy another PTB (Power Tool Battery0 for use in a scooter. I've had my BlackTip and Dewalt 12s since shortly after the BT came out.

Bottom line: PTBs are too unreliable. There is ZERO quality control that anyone applies to the PTBs to ensure their fitness for duty in a DPV. ZERO. Many people get lucky and theirs works just fine. Some people (including myself and others I know) don't and we get scooters that shut off in the middle of a dive because of a PTB voltage imbalance. And, for the record, I bought my Dewalt PTBs together and have only used them together in my BT and charged them together, at the same time, in my Dewalt 4-bay charger.

The BlackTip is King for people spending less than $7K. But, I counsel anyone who buys a BlackTip to buy a custom battery pack from someplace like @Jona Silverstein at Explorer Technology. Unless your real intent is to fly with it. Then you have no real option except PTBs (or a Genesis...).

For a BT Tech, it's a 20Ah/36V pack, so 720 W-Hr, versus the 432 W-Hr you get with a pair of 12Ah PTBs. You pay more and you get more. And what you get that isn't directly measurable is vastly improved reliability.

The pack is "propietary", but it's not stupid expensive, on a per W-Hr basis, like (for example) Seacraft and Suex battery packs are.

I think we are DEFINITELY tired of batteries that are stupidly expensive to replace.

 

[stuartv]

Full disclosure: I teach at a shop that is not a dealer on any brand of DPV. We don't sell DPVs and we don't represent Logic, Seacraft, Suex, Dive-Xtras or any other manufacturer of DPVs.

I know @Superlyte27 is a Genesis dealer. I'm sharing that as part of full disclosure, as I know it.

@TheScubaPanda: Just curious. Do you own or work for a shop that is a Seacraft dealer?

 

[Superlyte27]

Full disclosure: I teach at a shop that is not a dealer on any brand of DPV. We don't sell DPVs and we don't represent Logic, Seacraft, Suex, Dive-Xtras or any other manufacturer of DPVs.

I know @Superlyte27 is a Genesis dealer. I'm sharing that as part of full disclosure, as I know it.

@TheScubaPanda: Just curious. Do you own or work for a shop that is a Seacraft dealer?

I’ve also been a dealer for Suex, Silent Submersion, Oceanic. Etc.

If you don’t know this about me, I can also personally afford to buy 5 of every brand scooter out there today. I own a Genesis because it’s the best and has been for years. I don’t own Genesis because I sell Genesis. I sell Genesis because it is unparalleled. And I’ve owned a Genesis long before I had my dive shop.

It drives me nuts to see people push the brand they sell because they’re broke and need the money. Even when they know their brand is crap.

 

[Whitrzac]

I’ve also been a dealer for Suex, Silent Submersion, Oceanic. Etc.

If you don’t know this about me, I can also personally afford to buy 5 of every brand scooter out there today. I own a Genesis because it’s the best and has been for years. I don’t own Genesis because I sell Genesis. I sell Genesis because it is unparalleled. And I’ve owned a Genesis long before I had my dive shop.

It drives me nuts to see people push the brand they sell because they’re broke and need the money. Even when they know their brand is crap.

If you ask the new owners of ss, they say their scooters never fail