Search and Rescue - Lasers and Signaling Devices

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Phoenix Jr. Infrared Beacon – Tactical Night Vision Company

I do not use this exact model, but I use a very similar (cheaper) model for work on my helmet for IFF purposes. It just snaps right onto the battery and provides 96 hours of strobe. It can be seen very far through NVD's. nothing you need to do as SAR will have the necessary assets to see it.
How do you keep it dry when in the water waiting for a plane to come over the horizon. I use to know the formula to calculate that distance, but it escapes me now. I keep it dry while diving. I take it out to signal. It's going to be very wet. How to keep it dry to operate? It doesn't look like the one you included in your post #18. In the details it says "This Item is ITAR controlled and cannot be shipped or carried outside the United States without express written permission from the United States Department of State."

Cheers -

EDIT: I have since read the posts covering the waterproof case and other options. Taking it out of the US still poses a problem - M²
 
How do you keep it dry when in the water waiting for a plane to come over the horizon. I use to know the formula to calculate that distance, but it escapes me now. I keep it dry while diving. I take it out to signal. It's going to be very wet. How to keep it dry to operate? It doesn't look like the one you included in your post #18. In the details it says "This Item is ITAR controlled and cannot be shipped or carried outside the United States without express written permission from the United States Department of State."

Cheers -

You mean ship the stuff below to outside USA is illegal?

image.jpeg
image.jpeg
 
You mean ship the stuff below to outside USA is illegal?

View attachment 511551 View attachment 511552
No subject to export retriction by US DOD.
Encryption, weapons and some technologies with military or strategic impact have restrictions. Usually selling to a NATO or allied countrymen is not an issue
 
In reality, I first started carrying the Phoenix Jr. When wandering around less than friendly places. Your comments are quite correct, though I have found that most (non-tactical) SAR units I have spoken to opined that they would be most likely to investigate an IR beacon in the event that they encountered one (vs a visible light beacon, with the exception being a specific SOS message). Given the small size, I like to carry it. To each their own.

I think this begs a little perspective. SAR units don't just go wandering looking for people. SAR costs money. They do it when they train and when they're activated. Not because they're walking their dog and feel like looking for somebody. So let's assume they are aware that there is someone lost and needs findin'.

First let's assume a rescue at sea.. Now, I'm not in the merchant marines, but I'd be hard pressed to believe there are a pair of NOD's on the bridge of every tanker, trawler, and cargo vessel. So at sea that limits assets with NV capabilities to essentially Coast Guard helicopters and search aircraft. So IR would work great for them, but you might get passed by a dozen ships that can't see your beacon because it's not visible. Alternatively, if a shrimp boat sees a blinking light, especially when there's nothing around and they've been told there's a man overboard, they're gonna check it out. If the coasties are out looking for someone they know is lost, at night, with goggles on, they are certainly going to investigate every beacon they see.

Let's move to land. Most land-based SAR groups are volunteers of some capacity, supplementing whatever official assets are in place. Most private citizens aren't going to be carrying around I2 devices of any sort, and most agencies aren't going to be using them unless they've received surplus 1033'd from the government. But for the sake of argument let's assume that everyone has them. Visible beacons are just as visible under NOD's as IR beacons. The idea that they are actively out looking for someone and would ignore a beacon because it's not IR is pretty reprehensible. I would raise hell if someone I loved got lost and someone said, "eh, we didn't check it out because it wasn't IR flashy only." Someone would be in the hospital and I would be in jail.

But a more realistic scenario is that you've got 50 people out in the woods, without thermal or night vision capabilities whatsoever, and it doesn't matter how flashy for how long your IR beacon is, they're never gonna find you.

Do IR beacons have their place? Absolutely. I would never dream of hunting at night under NOD's without IR beacons on everybody. Would I ever actively choose to carry an IR beacon OVER a visible spectrum beacon in the event I might need it to signal rescuers? Not on my life, because that's literally what's at risk. If you want to supplement, have at it, but unless you're sneaking around waiting for a PJ to pick you up, there's no good reason to choose IR over visible. And if some local SAR dude told you that they'd investigate an IR beacon but not a visible beacon I'd run that all the way up that chain as far as it goes because that's unacceptable.

@fsardone you did a really nice job of covering why lasers aren't the best choice, but please stop with the "OMGLASERSWILLBURNTHEPILOTSEYEBALLSOUTANDALLTHEPLANESWILLCRASH" hyperbole. While hyperbole at best, it's fear mongering at worst. Like you mentioned, they're used as a deterrent in restricted airspace. You know why? Because they are safe way of GETTING SOMEONE'S ATTENTION. What do you think would happen if the US government blinded some granny pilot who screwed up and ended up in restricted airspace, and she crashed her little rental 172 into a school full of kids.

We can have an adult discussion about the pros and (several) cons of relying on a laser as opposed to dye, signal mirror, PLB/PAB, visible light, etc., but let's leave the reality tv level drama out of it. I know pilots who were actually blinded by lasers, they were A-10 guys when the aircraft was first getting rated for NOD's use back in the early 90's and they had eyeball damage from their high power IR finger lasers when roping targets during FAC sorties. Turns out nobody thought of specular reflections from the canopy glass entering behind a set of ANVIS goggles. They used to have purple visors too, because they thought that the Iraqi's were gonna shoot lasers at the aircraft and blind the pilots. I know because there's one sitting in a helmet bag in the garage.

A bunch of us lost a friend, and if he had any one of several signaling devices, he might have been found, waterlogged and dehydrated, but alive. We owe it to him to be honest and realistic.
 
@Scuba Cobra would you please tell us where to get the 9v white visible light beacon then?

Thanks!
I get mine from work.

How do you keep it dry when in the water waiting for a plane to come over the horizon. I use to know the formula to calculate that distance, but it escapes me now. I keep it dry while diving. I take it out to signal. It's going to be very wet. How to keep it dry to operate? It doesn't look like the one you included in your post #18. In the details it says "This Item is ITAR controlled and cannot be shipped or carried outside the United States without express written permission from the United States Department of State."

Cheers -

I've never been concerned with keeping it dry as they work when wet, however it is kept in a vacuum sealed tear pouch I just put in my dry suit pocket when ocean diving.

View attachment 511551 View attachment 511552[/QUOTE]
 
I think this begs a little perspective. SAR units don't just go wandering looking for people. SAR costs money. They do it when they train and when they're activated. Not because they're walking their dog and feel like looking for somebody. So let's assume they are aware that there is someone lost and needs findin'.

First let's assume a rescue at sea.. Now, I'm not in the merchant marines, but I'd be hard pressed to believe there are a pair of NOD's on the bridge of every tanker, trawler, and cargo vessel. So at sea that limits assets with NV capabilities to essentially Coast Guard helicopters and search aircraft. So IR would work great for them, but you might get passed by a dozen ships that can't see your beacon because it's not visible. Alternatively, if a shrimp boat sees a blinking light, especially when there's nothing around and they've been told there's a man overboard, they're gonna check it out. If the coasties are out looking for someone they know is lost, at night, with goggles on, they are certainly going to investigate every beacon they see.

Let's move to land. Most land-based SAR groups are volunteers of some capacity, supplementing whatever official assets are in place. Most private citizens aren't going to be carrying around I2 devices of any sort, and most agencies aren't going to be using them unless they've received surplus 1033'd from the government. But for the sake of argument let's assume that everyone has them. Visible beacons are just as visible under NOD's as IR beacons. The idea that they are actively out looking for someone and would ignore a beacon because it's not IR is pretty reprehensible. I would raise hell if someone I loved got lost and someone said, "eh, we didn't check it out because it wasn't IR flashy only." Someone would be in the hospital and I would be in jail.

But a more realistic scenario is that you've got 50 people out in the woods, without thermal or night vision capabilities whatsoever, and it doesn't matter how flashy for how long your IR beacon is, they're never gonna find you.

Do IR beacons have their place? Absolutely. I would never dream of hunting at night under NOD's without IR beacons on everybody. Would I ever actively choose to carry an IR beacon OVER a visible spectrum beacon in the event I might need it to signal rescuers? Not on my life, because that's literally what's at risk. If you want to supplement, have at it, but unless you're sneaking around waiting for a PJ to pick you up, there's no good reason to choose IR over visible. And if some local SAR dude told you that they'd investigate an IR beacon but not a visible beacon I'd run that all the way up that chain as far as it goes because that's unacceptable.

@fsardone you did a really nice job of covering why lasers aren't the best choice, but please stop with the "OMGLASERSWILLBURNTHEPILOTSEYEBALLSOUTANDALLTHEPLANESWILLCRASH" hyperbole. While hyperbole at best, it's fear mongering at worst. Like you mentioned, they're used as a deterrent in restricted airspace. You know why? Because they are safe way of GETTING SOMEONE'S ATTENTION. What do you think would happen if the US government blinded some granny pilot who screwed up and ended up in restricted airspace, and she crashed her little rental 172 into a school full of kids.

We can have an adult discussion about the pros and (several) cons of relying on a laser as opposed to dye, signal mirror, PLB/PAB, visible light, etc., but let's leave the reality tv level drama out of it. I know pilots who were actually blinded by lasers, they were A-10 guys when the aircraft was first getting rated for NOD's use back in the early 90's and they had eyeball damage from their high power IR finger lasers when roping targets during FAC sorties. Turns out nobody thought of specular reflections from the canopy glass entering behind a set of ANVIS goggles. They used to have purple visors too, because they thought that the Iraqi's were gonna shoot lasers at the aircraft and blind the pilots. I know because there's one sitting in a helmet bag in the garage.

A bunch of us lost a friend, and if he had any one of several signaling devices, he might have been found, waterlogged and dehydrated, but alive. We owe it to him to be honest and realistic.

While I understand your mainstream thought process, I've been a member of many SAR groups around the country that patrol regularly. Granted, these groups have always been a part of or attached to another agency, but the idea of SAR only paying attention when they're specifically activated or requested is untrue.

Knowing what assets are likely to be deployed when a SAR response is activated is one thing. Knowing what may be noticed as an emergency signal when a SAR response has not been activated is another. Again, having as many tools in the toolbox as is reasonable is a definite benefit. Putting yourself in a position to be noticed when you have an emergency and nobody is looking for you is something that applies to some people more than others.

With regard to Cameron specifically, and without getting too far off track; we both agreed that between the two of us, being avid solo divers, it was quite possible that if something were to happen, nobody would be looking for us immediately. Obviously, the tragic reality didn't turn out that way, but "realistic" to Cameron crossed a broad spectrum.

My advice will continue to be, assess which tools are available to you and which would be most suitable to your circumstances. Every situation is different.
 
Everybody is talking about lights, what about acoustics? For PLBs/lights the diver needs to have surfaced. What if the diver is underwater? If there was a device that can communicate underwater then the diver could send out an SOS as well as the device could act as a beacon so search divers can home in on the distressed diver.
This was something I discussed with Cameron and he was very interested in this idea and offered to test the prototypes. For example if both Cameron and his mum had such devices the outcome could have been a whole lot different. However a lot of SB members thought such a device is a crutch and in fact would be detrimental as divers would get complacent. Quite a few said that a device like this is not needed at all :(
Given the tragedy that just unfolded I would like to hear your comments on such a device which can change the future of diving in a positive way.
 
I think this begs a little perspective. SAR units don't just go wandering looking for people. SAR costs money. They do it when they train and when they're activated. Not because they're walking their dog and feel like looking for somebody. So let's assume they are aware that there is someone lost and needs findin'.

First let's assume a rescue at sea.. Now, I'm not in the merchant marines, but I'd be hard pressed to believe there are a pair of NOD's on the bridge of every tanker, trawler, and cargo vessel. So at sea that limits assets with NV capabilities to essentially Coast Guard helicopters and search aircraft. So IR would work great for them, but you might get passed by a dozen ships that can't see your beacon because it's not visible. Alternatively, if a shrimp boat sees a blinking light, especially when there's nothing around and they've been told there's a man overboard, they're gonna check it out. If the coasties are out looking for someone they know is lost, at night, with goggles on, they are certainly going to investigate every beacon they see.

Let's move to land. Most land-based SAR groups are volunteers of some capacity, supplementing whatever official assets are in place. Most private citizens aren't going to be carrying around I2 devices of any sort, and most agencies aren't going to be using them unless they've received surplus 1033'd from the government. But for the sake of argument let's assume that everyone has them. Visible beacons are just as visible under NOD's as IR beacons. The idea that they are actively out looking for someone and would ignore a beacon because it's not IR is pretty reprehensible. I would raise hell if someone I loved got lost and someone said, "eh, we didn't check it out because it wasn't IR flashy only." Someone would be in the hospital and I would be in jail.

But a more realistic scenario is that you've got 50 people out in the woods, without thermal or night vision capabilities whatsoever, and it doesn't matter how flashy for how long your IR beacon is, they're never gonna find you.

Do IR beacons have their place? Absolutely. I would never dream of hunting at night under NOD's without IR beacons on everybody. Would I ever actively choose to carry an IR beacon OVER a visible spectrum beacon in the event I might need it to signal rescuers? Not on my life, because that's literally what's at risk. If you want to supplement, have at it, but unless you're sneaking around waiting for a PJ to pick you up, there's no good reason to choose IR over visible. And if some local SAR dude told you that they'd investigate an IR beacon but not a visible beacon I'd run that all the way up that chain as far as it goes because that's unacceptable.

@fsardone you did a really nice job of covering why lasers aren't the best choice, but please stop with the "OMGLASERSWILLBURNTHEPILOTSEYEBALLSOUTANDALLTHEPLANESWILLCRASH" hyperbole. While hyperbole at best, it's fear mongering at worst. Like you mentioned, they're used as a deterrent in restricted airspace. You know why? Because they are safe way of GETTING SOMEONE'S ATTENTION. What do you think would happen if the US government blinded some granny pilot who screwed up and ended up in restricted airspace, and she crashed her little rental 172 into a school full of kids.

We can have an adult discussion about the pros and (several) cons of relying on a laser as opposed to dye, signal mirror, PLB/PAB, visible light, etc., but let's leave the reality tv level drama out of it. I know pilots who were actually blinded by lasers, they were A-10 guys when the aircraft was first getting rated for NOD's use back in the early 90's and they had eyeball damage from their high power IR finger lasers when roping targets during FAC sorties. Turns out nobody thought of specular reflections from the canopy glass entering behind a set of ANVIS goggles. They used to have purple visors too, because they thought that the Iraqi's were gonna shoot lasers at the aircraft and blind the pilots. I know because there's one sitting in a helmet bag in the garage.

A bunch of us lost a friend, and if he had any one of several signaling devices, he might have been found, waterlogged and dehydrated, but alive. We owe it to him to be honest and realistic.
I was a NORAD Mission Crew Commander in the Eastern Air Defense Sector, so I am very familiar with the "Sparkle" laser warning system in the Restricted Airspace around Washington DC. Yes, you are right, under very specific circumstances, trained military personnel illuminate aircraft violating the Restricted Airspace (either the SFRA or the FRZ) with a laser. This is one step in the escalation of the use of force Rules of Engagement, and is rarely done and only when it provides the best option to make the aircraft violating that airspace turn away.

I am also acutely aware of pilots on approach into airports (for some reason it is worst around Newark, Reagan National and La Guardia) of pilots calling in emergencies after somebody illuminated the flight deck with a laser and the pilot or copilot was incapacitated to a degree. In most cases, it is limited to a total loss of night vision due to a blinding flash of light and "seeing spots" both of which often go away after a few hours, but until the aircraft is on the ground, the safety of everyone onboard has been compromised.

As a part of my training, I have had the RCAF Land Survival Course, the RCAF Sea Survival Course and the RCAF Search and Rescue Airborne Spotters Course. In any of those courses, when the topic of using a laser was mentioned, the SARTechs (think the same thing as USAF Para Rescue or USCG Rescue Swimmer) teaching the course, universally said that it is about the worst thing that you could do. As others have said, if any member of the crew is illuminated, the pilot will not care who is lasing them or why, they will immediately turn around and RTB.

I agree, we owe it to Cameron to be "honest and realistic" yet an important part of that is that when somebody who actually knows what they are talking about says something, their opinions should not automatically be disregarded. As I said before, in sunny weather, your best option is a good old fashions rescue mirror, and when it isn't sunny, a flashing strobe (see post 18).
 
Everybody is talking about lights, what about acoustics? For PLBs/lights the diver needs to have surfaced. What if the diver is underwater? If there was a device that can communicate underwater then the diver could send out an SOS as well as the device could act as a beacon so search divers can home in on the distressed diver.
This was something I discussed with Cameron and he was very interested in this idea and offered to test the prototypes. For example if both Cameron and his mum had such devices the outcome could have been a whole lot different. However a lot of SB members thought such a device is a crutch and in fact would be detrimental as divers would get complacent. Quite a few said that a device like this is not needed at all :(
Given the tragedy that just unfolded I would like to hear your comments on such a device which can change the future of diving in a positive way.

a GPS? like the Nautilus lifeline on the market?

doesn't communicate underwater though, I don't think.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

Back
Top Bottom