Seeking Input on Low Air - No Air Situation

[fjpatrum]

I love Scubaboard! I have a whopping six dives under my belt and already feel like I know more than people who have dozens of dives, but never read SB

Some important things I've picked up on since joining SB are that nobody controls how long you stay under, except YOU. Check your air frequently. Always stick with your buddy, unless he's being a jerk and won't go up when you're almost out of air. It's no problem to cut a dive short, for ANY reason; if your buddy wants to go up, you go too and don't complain. If you're going to do boat dives, learn to use an SMB and always carry one with you. "Trust me" dives can be deadly.

I'm totally with you on this one, TexasKaren. I have a fat 12 dives and a couple of pool practice sessions, but I'm extremely comfortable with my progress and skills almost entirely because of feedback I've been given here and information I've learned here.

 

[Peter Guy]

Seaducer wrote

After all this family has been informed that they can dive completely independent of dive pros, there for they should have been taught enough to do exactly that.

Assuming the OP was trained within the PADI system, that quote is NOT an entirely accurate statement.
The PADI OW cert says a graduate is qualified to plan and execute an independent dive

in conditions with which they have training and/or experience.

This is an important distinction and, pretty clearly, was NOT a dive the OP had "training and/or experience" in doing. Thus the OP rationally, and properly, relied on the "Professional guide" to fill the holes in the OP's "training and/or experience."

 

[SoccerJeni]

FANTASTIC!!!

Would you mind starting this as a new thread in the New Divers section, or allow me to? If not, shoot me a message and we can discuss the format I'v got in mind for it.

I personally would really like to hear about that discussion Bubbletrubble if you don't mind. It sounds like you had a great instructor.

 

[Kenny13]

I love Scubaboard! I have a whopping six dives under my belt and already feel like I know more than people who have dozens of dives, but never read SB

Some important things I've picked up on since joining SB are that nobody controls how long you stay under, except YOU. Check your air frequently. Always stick with your buddy, unless he's being a jerk and won't go up when you're almost out of air. It's no problem to cut a dive short, for ANY reason; if your buddy wants to go up, you go too and don't complain. If you're going to do boat dives, learn to use an SMB and always carry one with you. "Trust me" dives can be deadly.

Have to admit that I'm also a newer diver with a similar number of dives under my belt, and I too have learned a lot here. This is a great thread too and I plan on showing it to my son & son-in-law for the lessons we can all learn as newbies.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Again, PADI is not alone in omitting some concepts that I feel are important, but I do know from my conversations that they are open minded and giving consideration to changes like this.

No they are not. Over the past few years I've had occasion to research what several other agencies teach ... and none of the ones I looked at did an adequate job on gas management. That's one reason why I started doing the free seminar thing ... because this is too important a topic to gloss over.

I think for the most part the recreational agencies target the largest demographic ... which are vacation divers in a group under the supervision of a DM. But as this thread clearly demonstrates, sometimes those DM's don't make decisions that work out in your favor.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

I think for the most part the recreational agencies target the largest demographic ... which are vacation divers in a group under the supervision of a DM. But as this thread clearly demonstrates, sometimes those DM's don't make decisions that work out in your favor.

And so what do we do about it?

That is intended as a genuine strategic question, and it implies that I believe something can be done about it.

One thing that definitely does not work is the strategy used by some on SB in the not so recent past: constant over-the-top rants filled with accusations against character and ethics, brimming with falsehoods and gross exaggerations. That kind of behavior simply causes the agencies themselves to ignore you, and it forces others who would also like to see some changes instead devote their energy to correcting the falsehoods and gross exaggerations, leaving them neither the time nor the desire to work for positive change within the organization. They also fear having their legitimate concerns bringing on the appearance of being in the camp of the ranters.

Not long ago the recreational agencies were dead set against the use of nitrox in recreational diving. Now they are encouraging it. I think that not only demonstrates that change is possible, it more importantly points the way to how it is possible.

When nitrox was introduced, it was immediately placed in the realm of technical diving and forbidden for recreational diving. Gradually research indicated that it was not as dangerous as first thought, and it was beneficial for the recreational diver as well. Nitrox then crossed that invisible dividing line between recreational and technical diving.

In the discussions I have had about the Distinctive Specialty I submitted, I know there is concern that some of the content I included is technical in nature and thus not suitable for the recreational diving world. I am quite sure that some people within the recreational agencies view a dive plan in which divers calculate adequate gas reserves to ensure returning to a required starting point (such as an ascent line in current) to be within the realm of technical diving. Moving skills like this over the line will require a change similar to the nitrox change, and that will require a patient and carefully calculated campaign.

It will also require people like you, me, or anyone to take steps to make this happen.

(BTW, I consider your free seminar to be such a step.)

 

[EastTNDiver]

a couple of points that haven't been hit on in this thread yet...

1 - you say you signaled your gas numbers to the dm. a dm at a resort area should know most of the popular ways to do this, BUT!! are you aware that there are at least 6 ways i can think of to tell gas? and that's without straining my brain. it is possible he had no clue what you were trying to tell him. of course, it is also entirely possible he knew exactly what you were saying and was ignoring you, but i'm just throwing this out there.

2 - a thumb is a command. if you gave the dm a thumb and nothing else, his only response should be a returned thumb and everyone goes back to the anchor line. the other possible response besides a returned thumb is something along the lines of 'yes, we're going up, let's go this way just a short bit to get back to the anchor line'. no response? a response that's not a thumb or some other 'you betcha, going up' sorta dealie? wrong answer. you & your group do what's right for you, and that's find the line & go up. this is something not stressed as much in open water as it should be, but a thumb is not a suggestion unless the giver clearly indicates in some pre-arranged way that it is. (like 'question. thumb.' or 'shrug. thumb.' whatever the buddies agree on to mean 'eh, i'm sorta done with this dive unless you have a good reason to hang out another 5 minutes. oh, you want one more picture? ok, then after that we're going up.') to reiterate, a thumb is not a suggestion. it is a command. the accepted response is another thumb and an ascent.

I agree wholeheartedly, but there's something that's not been mentioned in this thread. This happened in Mexico, and it's quite common for DM's/guides down there to put divers on an octo to extend bottom time if the majority of the group has not yet reached turn/ascent pressure. I've seen people defend this practice, but I personally feel it is an extremely poor practice, and only serves to reinforce bad diving habits in new and/or vacation divers.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I love Scubaboard! I have a whopping six dives under my belt and already feel like I know more than people who have dozens of dives, but never read SB

Some important things I've picked up on since joining SB are that nobody controls how long you stay under, except YOU. Check your air frequently. Always stick with your buddy, unless he's being a jerk and won't go up when you're almost out of air. It's no problem to cut a dive short, for ANY reason; if your buddy wants to go up, you go too and don't complain. If you're going to do boat dives, learn to use an SMB and always carry one with you. "Trust me" dives can be deadly.

Please understand I'm not picking on you TexasKaren68, I'm picking on ScubaBoard. There are a lot of people who read internet forums and then feel like they know more than people who don't read internet forums; but like anything you read on the internet, how valid is it?

Depending on the boat one dives from, the guide may control the max time of the dive; in that situation some divers are not in control of how long they stay under.

Depending on the dive plan, if you are past a certain point in some dives, it very well may be a significant problem to cut the dive short.

If I have to cut a dive short because my buddy teased an eel and got bit, I'd already be complaining before the rest of the divers returned with pictures of humpback whales.

The vast majority of divers who dive from charter dive boats in the world don't even know what an SMB is and their risk from that "ignorance" is likely less than their risk of undeserved DCS on those dives.

Your OW training dives were "trust me dives" but like most "trust me dives" the risk of a "trust me dive" being deadly is likely less than the risk of the previously mentioned undeserved DCS being deadly.

If you would never drive your Volvo wagon faster than 5 mph under the speed limit on a deserted Wyoming freeway, and would never drive it faster than the yellow recommended speeds for the curves, please ignore all my opinions of SB's opinions.

:focus:

You should have learned to check your air frequently in your OW course.

 

[seaducer]

I am quite sure that some people within the recreational agencies view a dive plan in which divers calculate adequate gas reserves to ensure returning to a required starting point (such as an ascent line in current) to be within the realm of technical diving.

If we go with the common definition of the terms recreational and technical, I can't help but be saddened by this statement.

I consider that knowledge to be among the most important and basic to diving in general and would be shocked to learn of any dive education professionals do not feel the same way. At least introduce students to the concepts? Some of the equations may not be necesary but...I don't know something more than pretending this is far too advanced is needed. We are for the most part talking about adults right? For that matter most 12 year olds would probably be top of the class in gas management anyway...

I mean diving is only fun if you can return afterwards...right?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

In the discussions I have had about the Distinctive Specialty I submitted, I know there is concern that some of the content I included is technical in nature and thus not suitable for the recreational diving world. I am quite sure that some people within the recreational agencies view a dive plan in which divers calculate adequate gas reserves to ensure returning to a required starting point (such as an ascent line in current) to be within the realm of technical diving. Moving skills like this over the line will require a change similar to the nitrox change, and that will require a patient and carefully calculated campaign.

As you noted, I see some similarities to the resistance in the early '90's to nitrox for recreational use. I think in a lot of those cases, both the problem and solution are ultimately driven by business, rather than diver safety, concerns.

What exactly does "technical in nature" mean? Isn't that really an artificial construct to define some set of "limits" to what the recreational diver is capable of? I don't believe in it. Divers live within a certain environment ... and any knowledge that helps make that environment safer is a reasonable thing to provide. If it appears to "technical", then the solution is to present it in a way that's less so.

For example, my AOW students do not go on their deep dive without first learning how to calculate their consumption rate, and how to base a dive plan on how much gas they have available. It's not "technical", it's simple arithmetic ... something anyone who's gone past about the fourth grade should be able to do. I've been teaching that way now for seven years, and yet to have a student who couldn't do it ... most rather easily.

I've had people come to my seminars who are recently OW certified ... and in a few cases, not yet certified ... and they "get it". So how technical is it, really?

As noted earlier, I was dumbfounded by the response the first time I offered to send my article to anyone on SB who wanted it. I couldn't keep up with all the requests. At the time I didn't have a website, so I asked a friend to put it on his so I could send people there.

There's a market for this stuff. People want it. The agency who leads the way providing for that market will make out.

That's the argument that should be used to promote it ... because, ultimately, scuba training is a business. And in business, selling what people want to buy makes more sense than telling people what's available ... or what's too "technical" for them to learn.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)