Seeking Input on Low Air - No Air Situation

[Cave Diver]

During my PADI basic OW class, our instructor led a discussion at the end of our training that was filled with "What would you do if...?" scenarios. In retrospect, these were synthesis-type assessment questions. Some were tricky. Some were straightforward. All were designed to test the extent of our understanding of the training. It's been quite some time, but several of those scenarios have been burned into my memory:

• What would you do if you lost sight of your buddy underwater and couldn't find him/her?
• What would you do if you're in a buddy team of 3 divers and one buddy went left while the other went right?
• What would you do if you're in a buddy team of 5 divers and, all of a sudden, you only counted 3 other divers in your field of view?
• What would you do if you're diving in two buddy pairs and you lost sight of the other buddy pair?
• What would you do if the DM leading your boat dive went into a cave or other overhead environment?
• What would you do if your buddy inexplicably descended deeper (100+ fsw) than the two of you had discussed during pre-dive planning?
• What would you do if your computer stopped working during a dive?
• What would you do if you exceeded your NDLs (table or computer)?
• What would you do if you were trying to change a setting on your dive computer and you and your buddy missed part of the DM pre-dive briefing on a boat dive?
• What would you do if you're finning hard to keep your head above the surface of the water...and you're getting tired?
• What would you do if you got a leg cramp but your buddy didn't notice and left you behind?
• What would you do if your buddy gave you "the thumb" on the dive but everything seemed like it was OK?
• What would you do if your buddy started making fun of how much air you use?
• What would you do if your buddy wanted to go diving but you weren't comfortable with the dive conditions (high surf, current, low vis, rough seas, etc.)?
• What would you do if your buddy kicked your mask off of your face?
• What would you do if you started feeling really cold on a dive...so cold that it was difficult to think clearly?
• What would you do if you found yourself breathing really fast/hard underwater and the reg felt like it wasn't giving you enough gas?
• What would you do if you reached your agreed upon turnaround pressure and your buddy or the DM pushed on with the dive (rather than turning around)?

That's all I can remember now. We discussed all of this over lunch. The best part about the discussion was that he didn't just spoon-feed us the answers. We came up with possible courses of action -- some more sensible than others. Furthermore, he asked us to come up with ways we could avoid getting into such tough situations in the first place.

FANTASTIC!!!

Would you mind starting this as a new thread in the New Divers section, or allow me to? If not, shoot me a message and we can discuss the format I'v got in mind for it.

 

[BabyDuck]

op, just to reiterate - you flashed the dm something. *he may not have understood*. did you use 5's? both handed numbers? the number on your arm method? one handed numbers (my favorite)? the 't with both hands means 1/2' method? the showing him your spg method? see, that's 6 without breaking a sweat, and i'd not have any idea what someone was saying with most of them *unless that's what we had discussed on the surface*. so unless he said afterwards, 'i know you told me you had 850 psi, but i thought it would be better to blah blah blah', the message might not have been received.

 

[seaducer]

Unfortunately, gas management is not a part of the basic curriculum for scuba instruction for any of the major agencies that I know. You can't blame the instructor for not teaching what is not part of the curriculum. Many of the suggestions for the writer, although valid, contain information that is not a part of normal basic OW instruction, and we can't expect such divers to know it.

The DM knows this. [snip]
And so I do place the blame for this on the DM. He is in a professional leadership position knowing that the people under his charge are trusting his leadership without the training to override his decisions.

This could boil out of control quickly, and it is not my intent to start another agency bashing thread, however I can't help but feel a certain way when I read your post.

First, gas management was included in my OW training. That is not to say that it was complete, but it did give me an idea of how to know when it was time to start thinking about ending the dive. Whether this was curriculum or not I have no idea.

BUT if it is not, I can't blame the DM for not managing the gas of the divers in his/her charge. I have to blame the instructor for not including some sort of introduction at least in their classes, after all the instructor is supposed to be more of a leader, more of a professional than a DM is. I have to look at the agencies as if the boards that write the standards are all smoking crack. GM is, or at least should be one of the most basic things every diver knows.

Basic as in here is a building block for every single one of your dives. It is more important that any piece of gear(even a BP/W).

If it is not in the book it should be, shame on the writers for leaving it out. Still it is up to the instructors to include it in their courses, and until they do we can't pass the buck down and demand a supposed lesser professional to assume that responsibility.

This ball of crap rolls uphill...

 

[Straegen]

This one is straight forward to me. The DM is your guide not your buddy. When you reached your planned air level, you should have showed the up sign to your buddy and your guide. Once they acknowledged the up sign begin the ascent with your buddy and do your safety stop. If the guide wanted to continue on and that wasn't part of the original dive plan, that is his call but your call should be for your own safety and the safety of your buddy. At the end of my safety stop if I wasn't with the guide any longer and couldn't stay with the flag, I would deploy my SMB at depth get on the boat and have a discussion with the DM to avoid the situation in the future.

 

[boulderjohn]

I agree that what we often refer to as "gas management" here on SB is not taught by the larger scuba instructional agencies. (Huge oversight.)

In my post which you quoted, I was talking about the simple "gas management" that PADI teaches -- arrive at the surface with 500 psi. I apologize for the confusion. Reviewing what happened to the OP, there's clearly a discrepancy between what went down and the mantra be-back-on-the-surface-with-500-psi. Why did this occur?

For those who don't know me, I am a PADI instructor who has built a reputation on this board for defending PADI instruction against unwarranted attacks. It is incredibly ironic that I might be accused of PADI bashing later in this thread. I believe there is something missing in recreational dive instruction in regard to dive planning, and not just with PADI. This incident gives one example. Let me explain.

PADI teaches OW students to begin the dive into the current, which did not happen here, but it was not the diver's fault. The line was set at the wrong end of the wreck, so they had no choice but to swim into the current. Next, they could not do a direct ascent to the surface because of the current--they needed to turn the dive with enough gas to get back to the ascent line with enough gas in reserve to make a safe ascent. Thus, the team needed to know the safe gas level to turn the dive. That is all much more complicated than knowing when to begin a direct ascent to the surface.

As some of you may also know, when I disagree with aspects of standard recreational instruction, I try to reform from within rather than grouse about it online and start flame wars. I worked with a group of other instructors around the world on an article to reform the way skills, especially buoyancy, are taught in OW classes, and PADI will publish that article in the next edition of its professional journal. I am also working with PADI on this issue at this time.

I have submitted a Distinctive Specialty in dive planning to PADI, and it is currently under review. My outline includes this scenario (planning gas reserves to get back to an ascent line). I have had a number of exchanges with PADI related to this, and I know that my entire outline is controversial because it contains concepts that blur the line between recreational and technical diving.

Again, PADI is not alone in omitting some concepts that I feel are important, but I do know from my conversations that they are open minded and giving consideration to changes like this.

BTW, the list of items in the rest of your post is excellent.

 

[seaducer]

For those who don't know me, I am a PADI instructor who has built a reputation on this board for defending PADI instruction against unwarranted attacks. It is incredibly ironic that I might be accused of PADI bashing later in this thread. I believe there is something missing in recreational dive instruction in regard to dive planning, and not just with PADI. This incident gives one example. Let me explain.

I hope you are not inferring that from my post? I read your comments and where you felt the DM should be compensating for what they should know is lacking in their charges training, I would rather redirect back to the source.

After all this family has been informed that they can dive completely independent of dive pros, there for they should have been taught enough to do exactly that.

I am glad you acknowledge the imperfections of current training. As we learn more there will always be flaws, in every class, and I only hope the agencies continue to improve their products with more than just the ledger book in mind.

I have written letters to PADI, as they are my agency too, but I basically received what I presume to be a form letter thanking me for my interest and comments. Perhaps you are in a better, more influential position.

 

[2 Big 2 Fail]

I note that if I look at job descriptions in ads seeking DM's, the word "guide" appears often. Very rarely does any reference to safety appear. I suppose that's really fairly accurate, considering the thrown together nature of a group of customers on a boat and the likelihood that it will be impossible to keep them all together, or in sight, or agreeable to early termination of a dive. It strikes me that the reasonable expectations for DM's in training and in boat operations are very different. In training, the rules can be enforced, so it looks to me like the DM can stand back and be safety officer and can deal with a bum student. Without some way to enforce discipline, it would be entirely unfair to make a boat DM responsible for safety underwater. It certainly can't be expected that the DM will cover for any deficiencies in training, even if they could know what those were, and still try to be even a little responsible for everyone. I have to think that if someone believes they need particular shepherding because they're new to the ocean, new to the depth, or any other reason, and they really want someone attending to them, they had better hire their own DM for the trip.

People who are incapable of realizing the hazards of diving, either from bravado or failure to inquire into those hazards, shouldn't be doing it with any expectation of staying alive and well. It's not like the information is hard to find or difficult to understand. For instance, I don't know just where the choice to use already lowish air trying to get to or find an anchor line stands in the list of factors in lethal accidents, but it's in there often enough that even a casual reading to discover how divers get in trouble will make it clear. And that includes those incidents where someone followed another's poor decision. The law has a common phrase, "knew of should have known," to assign responsibility. When you go into an environment that will cheerfully kill you if you get it wrong, then it's up to you to know things, and you should have known them, and you have no excuse if you didn't because you depended on someone else to tell you everything that you ought to know. And the fact that people will allow you to do without that knowledge in no way gets the individual off the hook for being responsible for their own safety and survival.

 

[a22shady]

First, gas management was included in my OW training. That is not to say that it was complete, but it did give me an idea of how to know when it was time to start thinking about ending the dive. Whether this was curriculum or not I have no idea.

I have to say that I did a lot of researching and talked to a lot of shops before I did my OW. I picked the one that sounded the best and just so happened was less than others and offered more. However I was trained in NJ by TSC "The Scuba Connection" There OW curriculum prepares you for OW diving. I do know we also covered Gas management too. When to turn, hwo to end etc.. So I dont think this is an orginization issue as much as that shops course.

My buddy who took the course else where had told me that that shop in question didn't cover a lot of the information my shop covered and he felt he got short handed as they didn't go over all the things that I did. Now he knew about all them cause we talked frequently and even scuba together when he is in the area.

So i think it's really up the Shop/instructor to make the students aware some do some don't. Again difference for us could be our shop has there own pool onsite so we didn't really have any time limits, were able to take our time with our course and never was rushed. Our Instructor did a awesome Job especially with my G/F who at the time was neverous and he was extremly patient. There were nights we stayed 2 hours later than scheduled. He was very thorough and wanted to make sure all his students new how to dive.

Then even after Our course was complete one of the owners "Jason" new she had some trouble with removing her mask, she did complete it couple times, But he volenteered his time and asked that she would come back just so he can be sure she is still ready As there was a couple week gap between pool/classroom and OW. And she did and completed everything perfectly.

So I feel it's trully up to the Shop and Instructor to make the students aware of miostly everything that they should be aware of in OW. Now maybe becuause we live in NJ and do diving here and the north east dosn;t have great Viz at times, water is cold and change quickly maybe thats why they focus little more than else where.

 

[boulderjohn]

I
I have written letters to PADI, as they are my agency too, but I basically received what I presume to be a form letter thanking me for my interest and comments. Perhaps you are in a better, more influential position.

It isn't me.

I am sure that they receive a huge amount of letters like that asking them to consider things they have considered often before. With that in mind, you have to take steps to "power up."

To get the article more careful consideration, I enlisted support.The article was signed by 14 instructors from around the world. The list included course directors and a couple of well-known names in the dive world. We spent about 2/3 of it on very careful explanation of why what we were saying was important. It was well supported with details. This all separated my article from just another message offering an opinion.

As for the dive planning, I submitted an application for a Distinctive Specialty. That guarantees it will receive careful consideration. If they are going to endorse an instructional, they need to believe in it. If they are not going to endorse it, then they have to be able to explain why.

 

[Tortuga68]

As rough over the thumb:
50 bar remaining air after the dive as safety

I know you're saying 'rough rule of thumb' but part of the problem is that new(er) divers take these rules as applicable to all situations

If you use rock bottom, 50bar isn't even enough to bring two stressed divers to the surface from 60' while completing their safety stop, let alone any deeper