Should a Divemaster speak up?

[Diver0001]

Warning.... when a pig is asking to be washed what he really wants is a massage. IJS. Let it go.

Getting back on topic, I think an interesting question has been raised. There *are* instructors out there who will certify some pretty marginal cases (to put it mildly). What is a DM to do if they are put in the position of having to help an instructor like this?

The question is somewhat rhetorical because I have been in that position and I'll tell you after a bit what happened.

R..

 

[SubMariner]

Warning.... when a pig is asking to be washed what he really wants is a massage. IJS. Let it go.

Alas, you are right. I have fallen into a Troll Trench. Thanks for getting me out of it.

Getting back on topic, I think an interesting question has been raised. There *are* instructors out there who will certify some pretty marginal cases (to put it mildly). What is a DM to do if they are put in the position of having to help an instructor like this?

The question is somewhat rhetorical because I have been in that position and I'll tell you after a bit what happened.

R..

Sad, but true. One of them happened to be a DMC that I refused to certify who went elsewhere to become a DM.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Why should I turn pro? I hate dealing with people and I seriously doubt that your instructor/DM pay is anywhere close to my annual salary.

.

Because you're running your mouth. Many of us pros have more dives in a month than you've got total. Lots of instructors are part timers, working evenings and weekends. But with the mouth you have I seriously doubt any instructor would put up with you. You'd have to LEARN humility first. When you disrupt the teaching process with opinions you take away from the learning process. A DM, DiveCon or any assistant needs to be quiet unless called upon. I always called upon my assistants because it's fun to get them started in the teaching process.

And yes, there are magic paragraphs. DM's are entry level pros. Comments are always appreciated. Confrontations from someone with less than 10% of the training and with less than 1% of the total dives that some of us have are not appreciated and will get you excluded from future work. Or in the case of a candidate will earn you a fail.

 

[Tigerman]

Because you're running your mouth. Many of us pros have more dives in a month than you've got total. Lots of instructors are part timers, working evenings and weekends. But with the mouth you have I seriously doubt any instructor would put up with you. You'd have to LEARN humility first. When you disrupt the teaching process with opinions you take away from the learning process. A DM, DiveCon or any assistant needs to be quiet unless called upon. I always called upon my assistants because it's fun to get them started in the teaching process.

And yes, there are magic paragraphs. DM's are entry level pros. Comments are always appreciated. Confrontations from someone with less than 10% of the training and with less than 1% of the total dives that some of us have are not appreciated and will get you excluded from future work. Or in the case of a candidate will earn you a fail.

With the attitude you come across with, Id be happy to be excluded from any and all work with you, so thats fine.
You come across as someone who think that a DMC or any other diver not having a higher position than yourself should shut up, carry the tanks and and whatever they do they should NOT learn to do the job theire training for..

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Since I didn't see any smilies associated with the above I will have to assume that you are being serious.

I don't know to which agency you belong, but PADI does not simply give out Instructor Manuals to anyone without a Pro rating. And those are where Standards are found; they are NOT "public documents".

The general diving public is exposed to agency standards through Instructors and Certified Assistants who utilize/display certain aspects of these Standards. And I can't think of an instance where one of them would be saying "oh, BTW we can only have X number of you divers to X Instructors unless we have a Certified Assistant, whereupon we can increase the number of divers to XX." Just what kind of reaction do you think you'd get from a student if you said that? So instead the student sees Dive Pros behaving in a particular way. They never ask WHY.

So I beg to differ. There are indeed SEVERAL "magic" paragraph that become visable [sic] once you become professional."

Really? Anyone can go on ebay and buy an instructor manual. I let my students see all of mine. YMCA, NAUI, PADI, and SEI. They have every right to know what the standards are that I am teaching to. Anyone who contacts me can find out what the standards are for any of the agencies I have manuals for. I feel that they are public knowledge or should be. How else will students know if they are getting what is required or they are getting hosed.

Here for example:

http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/Cate...ck/DescSort_0/Filter_1=47/PDI71120.html?Hit=1

http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/Cate...ck/DescSort_0/Filter_1=47/PDI70120.html?Hit=1

 

[reynoldjr]

Why should I turn pro?

Turning pro will make you a better, more competent diver.:dancinglock:

 

[boulderjohn]

The performance standards for specific skills are not spelled out in writing. People learn them through a calibration process. During their training, they see a large number of performances, both passing and failing, and eventually learn what is acceptable and what is not acceptable through these experiences.

We have to remember that the instructor had two students involved in this situation:

1. An OW students who was being certified to be a diver
2. A DMC who was going through the calibration process to learn what a successful performance looks like

In order to pass the DM course, the DM will have to demonstrate the required skills and will have to have a DM-level understanding of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

In this case, the DMC saw something that seemed to be outside of what he had been trained to believe was acceptable. It is his job as a student to understand this, and it is the instructor's job to help the students understand. When you think of it this way, then the solution should be obvious. The DMC should go to the instructor and say (as diplomatically as possible) something along the lines of this: "As a DMC, I am trying to understand what level of skill a students needs to have in order to demonstrate mastery. Can you help me understand why the skills _________ performed were acceptable? This information will help me complete my DM requirements satisfactorily."

The instructor really has to respond. It is as much his job to teach the DMC as it was to teach the OW student.

 

[fnfalman]

Because you're running your mouth. Many of us pros have more dives in a month than you've got total. Lots of instructors are part timers, working evenings and weekends. But with the mouth you have I seriously doubt any instructor would put up with you. You'd have to LEARN humility first. When you disrupt the teaching process with opinions you take away from the learning process. A DM, DiveCon or any assistant needs to be quiet unless called upon. I always called upon my assistants because it's fun to get them started in the teaching process.

And yes, there are magic paragraphs. DM's are entry level pros. Comments are always appreciated. Confrontations from someone with less than 10% of the training and with less than 1% of the total dives that some of us have are not appreciated and will get you excluded from future work. Or in the case of a candidate will earn you a fail.

Yeah, I ran my mouth. Sorry, I didn't realize that I need an instructor certificate to have opinions about bad instructors.

As far as attitude, running mouth and humility...Master Instructor God Of All Diving, heal thyself.

 

[fnfalman]

Turning pro will make you a better, more competent diver.:dancinglock:

Yeah, a shake & bake 90-dives instructor is a very competent diver.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Yeah, a shake & bake 90-dives instructor is a very competent diver.

But the instructor with thousands of dives and thousands of students should allow a confrontation from a 60 dive DMC?

You have gone so far overboard here. The original post was that a DMC SHOULD have confronted an instructor while he was going through his DMC class.

That sir is laughable and no way to become a DM.

Lots of bad instructors out there along with lousy DM's and lousy divers. As I said before interrupting the learning process is not the way to go. I never said to be quiet forever, just in front of the open water students. If you don 't get that Mr I have 100 dives then I give up.