So, what is the point of AOW???

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More training is usually a good thing. But I think it really comes down to who the teacher is. For me I did not get anything out of my advanced course. If I had to do it over again I would at the very least go with another instructor. Likely though with another agency all together. I don't like the courses set up for resort divers to get through as fast as possible.

I have never been asked to see my Advanced card specifically.
 
A good diver is always learning....
 
Some AOW deep training dives are only 61' deep!

And that's part of the problem IMO.
 
For whatever it is worth to the OP. I am currently enrolled in an AOW class and I chose to take it because it allowed me to get some more diving in that I probably wouldn't have done on my own (Night diving or deep diving). It's also allowed me to meet a lot of new dive partners and make a bunch of friends in general. So even if it doesn't have an intrinsic value it will have some positive aspects and you may even learn something new! As for whether it is worth it for extra learning or for getting a card you may need later, I'll leave that to more experienced divers than myself.
 
And that's wrong IMO.

I guess you have to define wrong. Standards require 60 ft and not much diving. Often classes descend a line, kneel, do their timed task, compare guages and ascend. That meets the requirements of training standards so how is it wrong? It may not be ver useful as far as training but I don't think it's "wrong".

After having done all these classes from OW through instructor, many specialties and tech courses to cave and trimix and taught most of them...if I were to lay out what I thought was the ideal training schedule for a new diver, AOW, as offered by the mainstream agencies, wouldn't be in the lineup. As far as I'm concerned some of these courses go beyond failing to be useful training and actually do harm. For example, taking someone on a deep dive prior to requireing "good" diving shallow is just rediculous and more than a few people have been hurt doing it.

This is all just bottom-tilling resort diver stuff. In all likelyhood, you will survive it but you probably won't be diving long. If you're really interested in learning to dive (as apposed to just surviving some sightseeing under water) these courses are the hard way to go and leave you to figure out most of the important stuff on your own.
 
My wife and I took AOW, she was a fsirly new diver, and I was an old rusty one,so i figured I couldn't hurt, plus we wanted to get the Nitrox cert (best thing we ever did BTW).

We did the NAUI class because that was what was offered in the place we were going to be staying, and yes it was a "resort class", before I get slammed for that one.
That being said, I thought "Fish ID was a complete waste of training time,but they could have used more time for the navigation part. I learned a bit, but IMHO not enough to be proficant.
Deep Dive was just that.. A deep dive, you do a few skills you did at the surface, and compare them to the ones at depth. All in all I learned a bit, and got the Nitrox Cert, which we use all the time since then. Everything else was.... well... Kinda... interesting but not too usefull IMHO.
 
For whatever it is worth to the OP. I am currently enrolled in an AOW class and I chose to take it because it allowed me to get some more diving in that I probably wouldn't have done on my own (Night diving or deep diving). It's also allowed me to meet a lot of new dive partners and make a bunch of friends in general. So even if it doesn't have an intrinsic value it will have some positive aspects and you may even learn something new! As for whether it is worth it for extra learning or for getting a card you may need later, I'll leave that to more experienced divers than myself.

As an instructor, that's the kind of rationale I never want to impart to my students. If you want to meet new divers and make a bunch of new friends, join a club ... it's cheaper. The only reason to take a dive class should be because they have some skills or knowledge that you want to learn.

Dive instruction should ALWAYS have an intrinsic value ... if your instructor cannot challenge you to extend your basic skills and learn new things, then he or she is not doing their job ... and you're not getting your money's worth from the class.

What's the point of AOW? Well, to me ... OW teaches you how to not kill yourself while adapting to a new environment. It introduces you to some basic skills ... but doesn't really teach you how to use them properly. AOW is where you start learning how to use those skills to truly become a self-sufficient diver.

AOW isn't about getting a card, or being allowed to "go deep" ... it's about learning what it means to "plan your dive and dive your plan". It's about developing a mental approach to dive safety that takes not only yourself, but whoever you're diving with into account. It's about learning the difference between gas management and aborting your dive at 500 psi. It's about going beyond the compass and learning ... finally ... how to navigate underwater. It's about learning better ways to propel yourself underwater, developing better buoyancy control, and understanding the fit, form and function of your gear better.

Your AOW instructor shouldn't just be taking you out on night, navigation, and deep dives ... he or she should be teaching you why each of those dives are mandated separately, and giving you both the knowledge and confidence to be able to independently ... and safely ... PLAN that type of dive on your own.

It irks me when I hear people say they didn't get anything out of their AOW class ... to my concern, it can be one of the most useful classes out there. But what that tells me is that one of two things happened ... either the instructor didn't take it seriously enough, or the student didn't.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
This is all just bottom-tilling resort diver stuff. In all likelyhood, you will survive it but you probably won't be diving long. If you're really interested in learning to dive (as apposed to just surviving some sightseeing under water) these courses are the hard way to go and leave you to figure out most of the important stuff on your own.

Any particular courses/agenicies that you'll reccomend Mike? say from AOW/equivalent to tech/trimix/wreck?
 
As an instructor, that's the kind of rationale I never want to impart to my students. If you want to meet new divers and make a bunch of new friends, join a club ... it's cheaper. The only reason to take a dive class should be because they have some skills or knowledge that you want to learn.

Dive instruction should ALWAYS have an intrinsic value ... if your instructor cannot challenge you to extend your basic skills and learn new things, then he or she is not doing their job ... and you're not getting your money's worth from the class.

What's the point of AOW? Well, to me ... OW teaches you how to not kill yourself while adapting to a new environment. It introduces you to some basic skills ... but doesn't really teach you how to use them properly. AOW is where you start learning how to use those skills to truly become a self-sufficient diver.

AOW isn't about getting a card, or being allowed to "go deep" ... it's about learning what it means to "plan your dive and dive your plan". It's about developing a mental approach to dive safety that takes not only yourself, but whoever you're diving with into account. It's about learning the difference between gas management and aborting your dive at 500 psi. It's about going beyond the compass and learning ... finally ... how to navigate underwater. It's about learning better ways to propel yourself underwater, developing better buoyancy control, and understanding the fit, form and function of your gear better.

Your AOW instructor shouldn't just be taking you out on night, navigation, and deep dives ... he or she should be teaching you why each of those dives are mandated separately, and giving you both the knowledge and confidence to be able to independently ... and safely ... PLAN that type of dive on your own.

It irks me when I hear people say they didn't get anything out of their AOW class ... to my concern, it can be one of the most useful classes out there. But what that tells me is that one of two things happened ... either the instructor didn't take it seriously enough, or the student didn't.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, that might be what your AOW class is but the things you list aren't what you find in the performance requirements as written by some of the agencies.
 
Any particular courses/agenicies that you'll reccomend Mike? say from AOW/equivalent to tech/trimix/wreck?

Lets put agancies aside for now and talk about what I think we should be looking for.

Diving is like almost anything else in that the basics are probably the most important things to learn well. Why? Simply because everything else should be built on top of that. The basics are used on every dive and in all diving tasks.

IMO, the place to start is with an entry level class that provides a really solid foundation in the basics. Lets define that a little better. What is diving? 98% of it is just moving around midwater...or it should be. Controling your position and movement in the water column is the core skill. Regardless of how all those individual task related skills are introduced, eventually they need to be integrated with controling position and movement in the water column and without that midwater control you haven't done anything and you certainly aren't diving.

What's wrong with "traditional" dive training? They sit you on the bottom and teach you to clear a mask, reg, share air and whatever. Sometime during the class they get you off the bottom for a couple of minutes, and a couple of minutes is all that standards require. Often they never go back and integrate all those individual skills into a diving context and standards don't require it. So now you go to open water and again kneel to do these skills and take a couple of short tours bouncing off the bottom.They teach it all exactly backwards and never go back and finish. They have made kneeling the core skill rather than controling position and movement in the water column.

When the student says to the instructor "I still don't really get this buoyancy control thing" they're told they'll get it with experience or are told to take another class.

ok, your certified. You sign up for an AOW course and go to 60 ft to kneel and do "skills". You might do a S&R dive and kneel to tie knots. Where is the diving? Why go to 60 ft if you can't yet dive well at 10 ft? The AOW class wouldn't be quite so useless IF they had actally taught the basics that the AOW course assumes that you already know and you were actually applying those skills to those new environments. As is, it's just kneeling and sloppy diving in some different environments.

NEVER do they go back and teach what was missed in OW...not in AOW, not in rescue, DM or even instructor courses. The instructors can't teach it because they never learned it. Well, if you take a cave class you will finally have the mechanics and importance of trim explained but not everyone wants to cave dive and this is something that should be explained in the classroom before you every even get in the water.

Where do you find a class that lays down the solid foundation in the basics that I described at the start? I know individual instructors who do but the agencies don't seem to get it. I've heard good things about LA county but that's a little out of the way for the rest of the world. In regards to those basics, I think GUE has the right idea. I've sat in on a couple of their classes and everything I saw was great...but you have the DIR thing and the disappearing ink they use on their c-cards (they expire). I would expect their entry level course (which is up and running according to their website) to be really good. I think all the GUE instructors are also instructors with other agencies so I think an OW class with just about any one of them would be a good option. At least we know that they know the stuff.

For an AOW course, what Bob (NWGratefulDiver ) teaches sounds fantastic but you can't go to an agency for that, you need Bob or another instructor who has developed such a class. I think the folks at PADI (and the other agencies) should take Bobs class and learn how...after they take a good OW class so they see what one of those looks like. I also think the GUE rec triox or scuba diver2 or whatever they're calling it these days is a good option from a skill point of view.

Note here that I don't have any association with GUE and I've never taken any of their classes. I just think they do a really good job of teaching all those basic diving skills. In fact, I'm no longer an instructor with any agency so I don't have a stake in any of them.

What do you do? You can play the game, buy your cards and access (that's what you're really paying for is access) and then go learn to dive on your own like many of us did. You can search for an instructor who "gets it". That's pretty hard for a new person who doesn't know where to look or what to look for. Most divers just buy their cards and they go on just not knowing what it is that they don't know...just take your newly purchased access and go play in the water. I know some people get mad when I say this stuff and some argue but the fact is that we can go to just about any dive site and just watch to see exactly what I'm talking about.

This is getting long so I'm not going to go into any of the tech stuff. In any case, with a good foundation in the basics all that stuff is easy to learn. The only thing that makes it hard is having to go back and learn OW skills at the same time. All this stuff too needs to be built on that foundation in the basics that we should have developed in the entry level course.
 
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