Something's not right...

[H2Andy]

Open Water swimming shall be defined as any competition that takes place in rivers, lakes or oceans.

Open water is defined as non-confined water, like an ocean, a lake or a river (with notably different conditions than a swimming pool).

'Open water' means a natural body of water open to the sky.

ok... at the risk of highjacking this thread (too late?), i'll try
one more time.

yes, those definitions are all correct. the problem is, they
are incomplete.

let me illustrate from PADI's site:

Throughout the course [Open Water], you’ll learn fundamentals of scuba diving, including dive equipment and techniques. You earn this rating by completing five pool dives and knowledge development sessions and by making four open water (ocean or lake) dives.

now, here's the problem.... if you define "open water" as
simply a dive that takes place in an ocean or a lake, then
you are defining cave diving and wreck diving as "open
water" dives. clearly, an open water certificate (which
allows you to dive in ocean or lakes) does not qualify you
to dive in wrecks (in the ocean or lakes) or caves (in lakes or springs).

thus, i must conclude that "open water" does not encompass
all the diving that could possibly be done in oceans and
lakes, and some further limitations need be made to the
definition. that is what i was trying to do when dweeb jumped
all over me here.

it was a rather simple point, i thought... i guess no

 

[Kim]

The RSTC standards also allow OW certified divers in overhead environments, and only exclude divers who have not yet completed open water certification from overhead environments.

Could you give a link to where these standards are please? I have just downloaded the Open Water standards from the RSTC and I can find no mention of overhead. There is a mention of compulsory deco - it's specifically not allowed.
Actually - posting something like this seems fairly dangerous to me. Are you actually trying to tell OW divers that it's OK to go into caves and wrecks? Someone could easily get in big trouble if they believe this.
People - PLEASE don't go into overhead situations without proper training - it can be very dangerous.

 

[TheRedHead]

ok... at the risk of highjacking this thread (too late?), i'll try
one more time.

yes, those definitions are all correct. the problem is, they
are incomplete.

let me illustrate from PADI's site:

Throughout the course [Open Water], you’ll learn fundamentals of scuba diving, including dive equipment and techniques. You earn this rating by completing five pool dives and knowledge development sessions and by making four open water (ocean or lake) dives.

now, here's the problem.... if you define "open water" as
simply a dive that takes place in an ocean or a lake, then
you are defining cave diving and wreck diving as "open
water" dives. clearly, an open water certificate (which
allows you to dive in ocean or lakes) does not qualify you
to dive in wrecks (in the ocean or lakes) or caves (in lakes or springs).

it was a rather simple point, i thought... i guess no

You are also taught by your textbooks and instructors that you cannot enter caves and wrecks as an open water diver because you do not have the training to dive in any environment where the surface is obstructed.

I can't believe someone could become certified as an open water diver and not get that piece of information. You seem to be splitting hairs to point out that caves and wrecks lie in oceans, lakes and even quarries where open water divers are certified to dive.

It's simple, isn't it?

 

[H2Andy]

like, yeah...

sure we're splitting hairs...

any time you talk about definitions you're splitting hairs

that's why we have definitions for things such as
"cave diving" and "wreck diving" which are distinct
from "open water" diving

but may i point out that i belive you are missing the point?
i apologize if you have already done so, but if not, could
you go back to post 31 and read all the posts, in order, to
get the gist of what is going on?

 

[MikeFerrara]

You are also taught by your textbooks and instructors that you cannot enter caves and wrecks as an open water diver because you do not have the training to dive in any environment where the surface is obstructed.

LOL, and then they go to coz on their first trip and some horse-poop-for-brains leads them through a coral cave at 130

I can't believe someone could become certified as an open water diver and not get that piece of information. You seem to be splitting hairs to point out that caves and wrecks lie in oceans, lakes and even quarries where open water divers are certified to dive.

It's simple, isn't it?

Well believe it cuz when I was a new diver I never heard it. The skull and cross bones signs in Florida were news to me and apparantly lots of others too!

 

[Sideband]

ok... at the risk of highjacking this thread (too late?), i'll try
one more time.

yes, those definitions are all correct. the problem is, they
are incomplete.

let me illustrate from PADI's site:

Throughout the course [Open Water], you’ll learn fundamentals of scuba diving, including dive equipment and techniques. You earn this rating by completing five pool dives and knowledge development sessions and by making four open water (ocean or lake) dives.

now, here's the problem.... if you define "open water" as
simply a dive that takes place in an ocean or a lake, then
you are defining cave diving and wreck diving as "open
water" dives. clearly, an open water certificate (which
allows you to dive in ocean or lakes) does not qualify you
to dive in wrecks (in the ocean or lakes) or caves (in lakes or springs).

thus, i must conclude that "open water" does not encompass
all the diving that could possibly be done in oceans and
lakes, and some further limitations need be made to the
definition. that is what i was trying to do when dweeb jumped
all over me here.

it was a rather simple point, i thought... i guess no

I think you are right about the partial definition bit. Where I see the problem is, caves, wrecks and the like are usually located in open water. I know my pool didn't have either of those. While diving in a cave, we call it cave diving to further define it, but the dive site is in open water. (Assuming that you dove down to the entrance. I know caves are varied and there will always be an exeption) Even though you may be penetrating a wreck, the wreck itself is still located in open water. The dive to the wreck would be an open water dive and the main part would be a wreck penetration dive. <shrug>
After all of thisI have become certain of only one thing... I know what it means, you know what it means, and I'm pretty sure everyone else knows as well. It's just a matter of how anal we want to be about the precise definition.

Joe

 

[Charlie J]

Ya'll know, I read this thread with a lot of interest - and amusement. All the splitting hairs about Open Water vs. Cave, Wreck, etc.

When I finished my OW cert I felt that really all I had was a learner's permit - license to get more experience on MODERATE dives - certainly not overhead, wreck penetration, 110 fw (wanna get Narc'd anyone?).

After a few Ocean dives (that open water ?) I went back and took AOW - which included a deep dive and wreck dive. I both "book learned" and experienced the difference - and I think there is a lot of difference. Am I going to do 120 fw wreck penetrations - nope. But I feel much more comfortable with my skills and knowledge to dive the 90 fw or so I'm planning in the next months.

I guess what I'm saying is go slow - the 120 fw wrecks and reefs will be there even after you get another dozen dives under your belt...

But, it's your (maybe short) life...

 

[dweeb]

please read my posts before replying?

Andy, I hang on your every word. I live for your compelling prose. Your insults are like oxygen to me.

however, the question was about diving in a quarry where he did not go into overhead, and he was wondering if this was open water diving.(the answer is yes, btw)dweeb, the definition you are using doesn't make sense
outside of training. that would mean that a cave dive,
a wreck dive, and a deco dive would all be "open water" dives,and that a holder of an "open water" c-card would be
qualified to make those dives.

Stop and think about your line of reasoning, Andy.
If I dive at night, with direct access to the surface, withing NDL's, is this not an open water dive? Why, then, is there a night diving card? The cert name indicates the LOWEST level of diving it testifies to competence for. by the way, there are people who dive in all the circumstances you cite, who only hold an OW card, and some of them have been doing wreck, cave, and deco dives longer than you AND me combined.

The term "open water" was created by the agencies. There was a time when you could take the entire course, except for the open water dives, and get a SCUBA diver or basic cert, which allowed you to dive with direct supervision. The term "open water" was created as a name for the "full" certification that included doing the 4-5 OW cert. dives, and eliminated the supervision requirement. It was intended to distinguish from those who had only received confined water training. It did NOT signify anything about the availability of direct surface egress. At the time the OW cert was created, there WERE no deco or wreck penetration certs - it was the one cert that covered pretty much everything.

Once again, the AGENCIES created the term open water, and it is their definition, not your speculative one, that holds.

 

[dweeb]

So you guys trust your instructors to take you to 60 ft, but beyond that you have no faith in them? Why did you let them take you to 60 ft if you don't trust them?

I trust NO ONE to take me to ANY DEPTH that I am not prepared to dive without them.

That means, if you've never been beyond 30 ft., and you don't feel you can go to 50 ft. on your own, you shouldn't feel any more comfortable going there holding someone's hand, unless you first see the nail holes in that hand, if you get my drift.

 

[dweeb]

If I don't feel competent to make the dive, I don't go. It wouldn't matter if the Archangel Michael were leading the dive.

Well, maybe if Jezebel or Delilah were leading it...but that's a whole other motivational line.