Spiegel Incident

[DandyDon]

Okay, I'm speculating too but not having facts leaves one open to thinking along those lines...

It seems that the 3 family members were accustomed to solo ascents, first one LOA goes up first, etc. I certainly like a tight buddy pair ascent but as a air hog myself I have been sent up alone many times while my bud remained below - tagging along with a group usually. In their case, it sounds like dad went up first LOA, then Matthew/the injured diver started ascent, not too concerned about staying with his brother who reportedly has more challenges equalizing so like to ascend slower. THEN, Matthew lost control of his runaway ascent. I've seen it many times, happened to me once on my first post-cert dive; how common is it for some divers to get the inflate and defalte buttons confused?

We do not know here how much air he had on the surface? If he had a few hundred pounds, it may have helped to go back to 15 ft until he exhausted that? That's what I did when I had mine, and I've seen DMs take divers back down for 5 minutes in such cases.

Matthew was reportedly swimming to the boat when his brother surfaced. I always like to incorporate what Dr.Deco calls the hidden saftey stop - just floating, relaxed on the surface for a minute or two. He may have felt frustrated about his runaway ascent, swam to the boat vigorously, climbed up the ladder aggressively, all bad actions after a deep dive. Don't know if this is really what happened but then I am not attempting to lay blame; for those reading to possibly learn, I thot I'd mention those points.

I'm still curious about the claim "that he should have used 20 minutes to ascend"...? A casual statement, or was he in deco?

 

[idocsteve]

I think this is a good summary of the whole event in terms of how this could have been avoided.

Thanks...

One of the advantages of my Oceanic VT Pro Air integrated wrist computer is that it gives "remaining dive time" based on the most limiting factor of those that it constantly monitors, namely Nitrogen absorption, 02 absorption (when diving Nitrox), and gas supply.

Normally, at least in my case, it's gas supply...I might get an alarm that I've got 10 minutes left...then I'll ascend 20 feet and suddenly my remaining dive time is almost double.

I wonder how many divers, especially newbies, fail to realize the huge impact that ascending even a relatively small amount can have on tank gas pressures?

 

[divebunny13]

Thanks...

One of the advantages of my Oceanic VT Pro Air integrated wrist computer is that it gives "remaining dive time" based on the most limiting factor of those that it constantly monitors, namely Nitrogen absorption, 02 absorption (when diving Nitrox), and gas supply.

Normally, at least in my case, it's gas supply...I might get an alarm that I've got 10 minutes left...then I'll ascend 20 feet and suddenly my remaining dive time is almost double.

I wonder how many divers, especially newbies, fail to realize the huge impact that ascending even a relatively small amount can have on tank gas pressures?

I have a feeling narcosis and inexperience had a little to do with this. Once he got shallow enough to clear his narcosis, his runaway ascent was probably starting and his panic was probably already present.

I really hope he recovers fully!

 

[Codiak]

Let's consider it's possible that he had 1000 psi or more at the time he started his accent.
If so, he'd have had plently of gas (assuming no deco requirement) for a safe accent rate.

Now if we add to the equation a diver of limited (recent) experience the increased rate of usage gas could easily have started a chain react of panic.

Add Narcos to the equation... well lets not it's guesswork



Summerized Q&A :
What was the max depth: Max 130f (based on sandy bottom)
What was the bottom time:
What size of tank: Assumed A80 (local dive op)
What mix of Nitrox: NA (per poster)
How much air at time of thumb:
How much air at the surf:
What certs does the diver have:
How many total dives?
How many total dives in the previous 6 months?
Was equipment Rented or Owned?
Last date of Equipment service?

I haven't seen mention of an air-integrate-dive computer in this case, but a little black box could answer many questions.

Accidents happens, it's learning from them that's important. Even if we never get full disclosure for this inncident perhaps we could start another thread to discuss ways to reduce risks of the identifed potential failure points.

 

[lamont]

We can speculate on this or that which might have occurred, but for the divers reading this thread to avoid a similar situation there's a pretty standard set of things to do:

- learn how to manage your gas and practice that
- learn about narcosis and how to handle it (if you don't think you are narc'd at 100 feet, then you don't understand narcosis at all)
- stay within your NDLs
- practice buoyancy control and blue-water ascents (in an emergency situation you may not be able to get back to the upline, so you can't rely on it as a crutch).
- weight yourself properly (which does not mean simply overweighting yourself).
- also, practice your OOA gas sharing, too

Given divers who practice all of those things, this outcome should not occur on recreational dives.

 

[Notso_Ken]

I am very afraid to ask this in case I have made some horrible mistake, but did the diver feel that he should have taken 20 minutes to ascend, or is it the case that he really should have taken 20 minutes to ascend? I am confused. If it was a no-deco dive, and if he were to ascend from 135 to 20 feet at 30 ft/min, the ascent would require 3 min 50 sec. Add on a three minute safety stop (which was not done), plus (for an extra margin of safety) ascend at 15 ft/min for the last 20 feet (1 min 20 sec) and you are still at 8 min 10 sec. Am I missing something?

No, it would not be a 20 minute ascent:
135 to 0 at 30fpm = 4.5 minute
1/2 depth stop at 70 ft = 1 min
1/2 depth at 35ft = 1 min
15ft safety stop = 3 min
Total = call it 10 minutes

It does sound like he was outside the NDL. If you're out of air at that depth I would suspect you're SAC is high or it's (maybe inadvertandly) a deco-dive? I don't have my tables on me, what is the NDL for 135fsw?

NAUI tables list 130 ft NDL as 8 mintues, assuming no prior dives.

was he diving nitrox? or air. nitrox im thinking

I hope not nitrox, begging for an oxtox hit unless extremely lean nitrox, like 27% or less.


Ken

 

[ianr33]

I hope not nitrox, begging for an oxtox hit unless extremely lean nitrox, like 27% or less.
Ken

Why So?

 

[diversteve]

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[tgsmith]

I hope not nitrox, begging for an oxtox hit unless extremely lean nitrox, like 27% or less.

I'd hardly consider that to be begging for an oxtox hit. Using ean28 would give you barely a 1.4.........I'd call ean30 acceptable being you're not even going to hit 135 for any extended period barring some sort of emergency that would keep you pinned to the bottom.......even then you'd still be within the accepted 1.4-1.6PO2 "buffer" range at 135ft.

If using ean30 would be unacceptable for this dive, then I hope no one is diving air on the Oriskany's island

 

[boulderjohn]

In the other thread on this, I pointed out that the news stories on which people were basing their speculations are even less reliable than normal (pretty bad). There are too many points that are obviously untrue, not even counting the typical report that they were using oxygen.

The report that an ascent that should have taken 20 minutes took only 5 makes no sense, given all the other details. Their reported depth at the time of ascent is highly unlikely. I could go on, as I did in the other thread.

My point is that we really don't know what happened, other than the guy was low on air and ascended too fast. Any further speculation will almost certainly include some erroneous information somewhere.