Split from MHK's "Exactly 6 years ago today"

[CJ-62]

Edit: This thread was split from MHK's thread detailing why he became involved with DIR. I have added MHK's original post as a quote to CJ-62's post when split for the sake of context. It has gotten to far from the topic of that thread to allow it to continue as a part of that thread. However, there were many good posts written in response to CJ-62's questions and comments, so I have chosen to leave it in the DIR forum for others to learn more about DIR. Please keep in mind that the DIR forum is not the place to challenge DIR or the attitudes of it's proponents. If not for some of the well crafted posts explaining some of the facets of DIR this thread would have been moved to another forum. Thank you all for maintaining a civil tone in this thread.

- headhunter

I get asked often how and why I decided to adopt a DIR philosophy of diving. I've told the story often, but in the course of scanning some old notes, it occurred to me that today is 6 years ago to the day that a certain dive event changed the direction of my diving. It was 6 years ago today that my buddy Mike Carpenter and I were doing a dive on the Andrea Doria, just following a 3 man team consisting of 2 crew members and a passenger who had arrived on the Seeker without a buddy. Pete and Charlie had agreed to escort this diver but on the descent Charlie indicated that he had a problem and was going to ascend, owing to the fact that Charlie was an experienced guy Pete allowed him to ascend solo and continued his escort. About 30 minutes later Mike & I began our descent and at 180' as we were dropping our deco bottles about to penetrate Gimbels Hole, Mike indicated to me that he was having a problem and ascended. I figured Mike was an experienced guy so I let him ascend solo and penetrated the Doria solo. I was the last guy in the water that day so as I made my way back onto the boat after about an hour and a half, the boat lacked the usual joviality and I quickly learned that Charlie had never made it back so they all wanted to quiz me on where I had gone, or if I had seen any signs of Charlie [bottles, line etc.]. After a thorough debrief with Dan Crowell and Gary Gentile, Danny and JT Barker did a search. A few minutes into the search Charlie's lifeless body breached the surface. Several of us jumped into the frigid waters to retrieve the body in some extreme currents. Fighting the current and swimming back a lifeless body of someone you just ate breakfast with has quite an impact.

Driving back to Montauk with Charlie's body on the stern for the entire 11 hour ride [ Coast Guard won't "rescue" a dead body] caused me to seriously rethink my diving habits in light of the fact that I had just done the same exact thing to my dive buddy, Mike Carpenter.

Here's a link to one of many articles that were written on Charlie's death:

http://www.wetdawg.com/pages/under/fatal_depths/index_sc.php

In any event, before I even returned to the dock, the fatality was all over the "tech" list [ at the time it was the foremost internet scuba list] and there was this guy named George Irvine calling me a "stroke" and assorted other non-charitable names. I thought either this guy was the biggest ******* I had ever met, or he must really know his ****. A few weeks later, thanks in large part to Dan Volker, I flew to Florida with my then dive buddy John Walker. John and I did a couple of dives and had lunch with George Irvine, Bill Mee and Dan Volker after which it became quickly apparent that while I had been doing Andrea Doria type diving, I had no business doing so and that I should take the cotton out of my ears and stick it in my mouth and listen to what these guys had to say. Shortly thereafter George arranged for me to meet Jarrod Jablonski and take some training from a newly formed agency called Global Underwater Explorer's. Along the way I have made great friends, taken some serious training classes, advanced to instructor level for this agency, traveled the globe extensively and have gladly adopted the DIR philosophy.

Anyway, I didn't mean to ramble, but given the rash of recent fatalities locally it sort of brought me back to why I believe in the strength of DIR.

Be careful out there guys, there seems to be a stange wind blowing..

Regards

Greetings All,
Couldn't agree more with the basic techniques in DIR, but this thread confuses me. What dive agency would approve of splitting a diver (having trouble) off a team at 180fsw? Or solo entry into a wreck at 200fsw? Seems to me that DIR wasn't needed, commonsense was. In my dive training, seperating from a buddy just wasn't an option.

Sorry to hear about mrobinson's ex-buddy, do you really think that DIR would have prevented this? Consider all the newbs and strokes out there with all the wrong equipment, set up all the wrong way, doing-it-wrong every day; yet getting bent is usually confined to the over-confident, arrogant, limit-pushing fools of the sport.

I got certed in '84 and (thank God and adequate equipment) have never been bent. Would you then label me Stroke? Am I out of my depth for lack of DIR-F training?

I'm really not trying to troll here, I read these threads looking for better ways to do things and scenarios to avoid. But sometimes the self-congratulatory tone in these posts are a bit much. Anyway, flame on.
Until later,
CJ

 

[Charlie99]

Couldn't agree more with the basic techniques in DIR, but this thread confuses me. What dive agency would approve of splitting a diver (having trouble) off a team at 180fsw? Or solo entry into a wreck at 200fsw? Seems to me that DIR wasn't needed, commonsense was. In my dive training, seperating from a buddy just wasn't an option.

Sorry to hear about mrobinson's ex-buddy, do you really think that DIR would have prevented this?

The most basic difference is that a diver that violates DIR principles is no longer DIR. A PADI diver that violates their training is still a PADI diver.

Kind of like a heart attack while diving is a diving accident. A heart attack while playing golf is a heart attack.

In debating, implying that other agencies promote abandoning buddies would be considered a "straw man" tactic ---- set up a false straw man, and then attack it.

 

[CJ-62]

The most basic difference is that a diver that violates DIR principles is no longer DIR. A PADI diver that violates their training is still a PADI diver.

Kind of like a heart attack while diving is a diving accident. A heart attack while playing golf is a heart attack.

In debating, implying that other agencies promote abandoning buddies would be considered a "straw man" tactic ---- set up a false straw man, and then attack it.

In reverse order,
1. Exactly my point, abandoning buddies not is condoned in any general training, and I am willing to gamble that MHK was outside of his training to solo the Doria. Hence the commonsense comment.

2. Proving a heart attack, lack of oxygenated blood to the heart muscle, was not a dive accident allows those who categorize, i.e. insurance companies, to select their preferred causation. That was a cheap point but I had fun making it, sorry.

3. The statement "a diver that violates DIR principles is no longer DIR. A PADI diver that violates their training is still a PADI diver." seems a bit strong. In another thread, an avowed DIR diver admits to failing to perform a pre-dive check. Should he be forced to surrender his cred's until such time as he can again prove his worthiness!?!?

For me the bottom line is that several divers acted stupidly and a single diver paid for it with his life. No amount of training can prevent this, although good training will greatly reduce the frequency. It is only with humility that we learn and accept instruction. It is a lack of humility that I read in SOME of the posts within the DIR forum. I now get off my soapbox to listen and hopefully learn from the assembled.
Thanks for your time,
CJ

 

[Charlie99]

For me the bottom line is that several divers acted stupidly and a single diver paid for it with his life. No amount of training can prevent this, although good training will greatly reduce the frequency. It is only with humility that we learn and accept instruction. It is a lack of humility that I read in SOME of the posts within the DIR forum. CJ

Whether in religion, drinking, smoking, or bad dive habits, the most fervent are usually the recent converts / the born again / the recent DIRF graduate. The trick is to ignore the over-the-top attitude while picking out and using the good stuff.

 

[Hank49]

Whether in religion, drinking, smoking, or bad dive habits, the most fervent are usually the recent converts / the born again / the recent DIRF graduate. The trick is to ignore the over-the-top attitude while picking out and using the good stuff.

Charlie, I was thinking the exact same thing when I read this thread yesterday. I was just afraid to post it. DIR or not, it was a bad decision to separate on an open sea dive that deep...or any dive. That's not just DIR thinking, it's common sense.

 

[mrobinson]

The problem with common sense is that it's not all that common... I'm sure you've all heard that a time or two.
It's great some agencies/some instructors teach the right methods from the start and a few of you can benefit from it. DIR ideas work for me, not everyone.
In regards to the topic, all of us must remember how much attitudes have changed in diving compared to that time. Scuba has evolved - this thread is not about PADI bashing.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Greetings All,
Couldn't agree more with the basic techniques in DIR, but this thread confuses me. What dive agency would approve of splitting a diver (having trouble) off a team at 180fsw? Or solo entry into a wreck at 200fsw? Seems to me that DIR wasn't needed, commonsense was. In my dive training, seperating from a buddy just wasn't an option.

Actually such loose buddy teams are very common in both recreational and technical diving. Technical diving is often taught pretty much that way...ie a team is a loose grouping of independant self reliant divers that hang together as long as it's convenient. I've seen more divers split up and deco to their own computer than I've seen stick together during decompression even though that's one of the most critical and risky parts of the dive. It's even done in classes. If you read the texts of the different agencies you will see these attitudes glaring through.

In recreational diving buddy diving is given lots of lip service but so many classes are run with the class following the instructor in a pack. Resort dives are conducted the same way and the divers ability to remain aware of and respond to a buddy is never really tested (or at least isn't required to be tested).

No, it's the very way diving is taught and conducted in practice all the way through that results in divers splitting up at 200 ft, or 50 or whatever. This definately changes in DIR where team really does mean team.

Sorry to hear about mrobinson's ex-buddy, do you really think that DIR would have prevented this? Consider all the newbs and strokes out there with all the wrong equipment, set up all the wrong way, doing-it-wrong every day; yet getting bent is usually confined to the over-confident, arrogant, limit-pushing fools of the sport.

Not true. Just read here on the board to get an idea of just how common it is for divers to get bent on run-of-the-mill resort dives in places like Cozumel...as an example. I know more purely recreational divers who have been bent than I do technical divers who have been bent...and the hits can be worse too. You might be surprised just how much a recreational diver on vacation can be pushing the edge while staying within the acceptable bounds of their table or computer when doing multiple dives per day for multiple days while traveling and in a resort setting. Now take their average age and phisical condition into account and it may be more precarious than you think.Take their skills into account and it's no wonder that we have a rash of accident about this time every year...and this year hasn't been any different.

I got certed in '84 and (thank God and adequate equipment) have never been bent. Would you then label me Stroke?
CJ

Only if you silt up the dive site or leave your buddy. LOL

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Greetings All,
Couldn't agree more with the basic techniques in DIR, but this thread confuses me. What dive agency would approve of splitting a diver (having trouble) off a team at 180fsw? Or solo entry into a wreck at 200fsw? Seems to me that DIR wasn't needed, commonsense was. In my dive training, seperating from a buddy just wasn't an option.

Sorry to hear about mrobinson's ex-buddy, do you really think that DIR would have prevented this? Consider all the newbs and strokes out there with all the wrong equipment, set up all the wrong way, doing-it-wrong every day; yet getting bent is usually confined to the over-confident, arrogant, limit-pushing fools of the sport.

I got certed in '84 and (thank God and adequate equipment) have never been bent. Would you then label me Stroke? Am I out of my depth for lack of DIR-F training?

I'm really not trying to troll here, I read these threads looking for better ways to do things and scenarios to avoid. But sometimes the self-congratulatory tone in these posts are a bit much. Anyway, flame on.
Until later,
CJ

I won't speak for "DIR" ... as I don't really consider myself "DIR". But I have taken a couple of DIR-F classes, currently work at a shop that teaches DIR classes, and have been diving that approach for a couple of years now. Suffice it to say, I'll speak for myself ... and that I don't consider anybody a "stroke" (I dislike that term, actually, as I think it's divisive and counterproductive).

What dive agency would approve of splitting a diver (having trouble) off a team at 180fsw? Or solo entry into a wreck at 200fsw? Seems to me that DIR wasn't needed, commonsense was. In my dive training, seperating from a buddy just wasn't an option

Although some agencies do teach solo diving, I don't know of any who would overtly tell you that entering a wreck solo at 200 fsw would be a safe thing to do. However, people do it ... often out of ignorance ... because the training of many divers neglect some components of training that DIR emphasizes. For example, I'm a NAUI instructor ... and in all of my NAUI training, and my YMCA training before that, I was taught to dive with a buddy. But what was left out was the "how". Important buddy skills such as how to dive in a formation that allows for constant visual contact, passive communication using dive lights, situational awareness, and constant practice of your skills to the point where they are instinctive, are left out of most diver training. It's assumed that you'll develop these skills through experience ... so although in theory the other agencies will tell you they're important, they don't provide you the tools to develop them, or the awareness of how to do it. I'm not in any way trying to knock my NAUI training ... in fact, I'm rather proud of what I learned there ... but I will say that when I took my first DIR-F class (two months after becoming a NAUI instructor), I learned some techniques that helped me refine and improve my buddy skills that were never covered in any of my previous training.

Most of the stuff you see about DIR on the Internet focuses on gear ... but the most important aspects of the classes I took had to do with dive preparation, emphasis on diving as a team (and how to do it), and the concept of regular skills practice. Other agencies I've dealt with don't emphasize those things, although some do acknowledge their importance.

To address your question directly, other agencies will tell you it's important to dive with a buddy ... with DIR, that's the central principle upon which their whole approach is based, and they'll not only tell you it's important but show you how it's done.

Sorry to hear about mrobinson's ex-buddy, do you really think that DIR would have prevented this?

I think DIR may have prevented this. It's not a question of other agencies "doing-it-wrong", so much as it is the level and amount of information that's presented in the DIR classes. Keep in mind that DIR-F is really geared toward the recreational diver ... and yet they explain in very understandable terms WHY coming up slower is better ... the solubility of various gasses in your blood as you decompress and what it can do to you ... and why certain gas mixes at certain depths can improve your odds of not getting DCS. They talk about deep stops, why coming up slower than 30 FPM is better (especially as you get closer to the surface) ... and then they take you out and show you how to practice the skills. Their emphasis on buoyancy control is better than anything I've taken in other classes. In fact, I went into DIR-F thinking I had excellent buoyancy control ... heck, I was an instructor with over 900 dives at the time and figured I was gonna breeze through the skills part of the class. Boy, was I wrong ... I found out my skills weren't nearly as good as I thought they were. It was humbling (well, humiliating) ... but in the end, it made me a better diver.

That's not to say I care to judge other folks who've chosen other training paths ... I happen to agree with you that the attitude of some is a huge turnoff. But having been through the training, I can see why some would feel that way even if I wish they'd find more constructive ways to talk about it.

getting bent is usually confined to the over-confident, arrogant, limit-pushing fools of the sport.

Sorry, but I don't agree with this statement at all. Even the experts can't say for sure what causes someone to get bent. I know of one very cautious diver who got bent on a 40-minute dive to 90 feet. He did everything right ... didn't violate his exposure limits or ascent rate, and yet he got bent. It can happen to anybody ... even folk with DIR training. But what I got in my DIR-F class that I didn't get in other classes I took was some techniques that would help reduce the risk of getting bent. In effect, their approach to diving both improved my skills and helped me develop a more informed approach to dive planning and execution.

I can't, under any line of reasoning, see anything wrong with that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[aquaoren]

I can report from my own experience after completeing the DIR-F only 2 weeks ago, that the meaning of the TEAM is now completely differet to me.
I always considered myself to be a safe diver and a good buddy but I came to realise my shortages and I'm glad that I didn't have to go trough MHK's experience to understand it.

 

[CJ-62]

The problem with common sense is that it's not all that common... I'm sure you've all heard that a time or two.

While common sense isn't that common, it is what I depend on (with a continuous improvement loop built in). Reading these threads is one aspect of that perpetual learning behavior I think all divers should have.

It's great some agencies/some instructors teach the right methods from the start and a few of you can benefit from it. DIR ideas work for me, not everyone.

Now I never bad mouthed anything that DIR proposed. The logic and reasoning behind the techniques is overwhelmingly sound. It just doesn't universally apply to all scenarios equally.

In regards to the topic, all of us must remember how much attitudes have changed in diving compared to that time. Scuba has evolved - this thread is not about PADI bashing.

Compared to "that time"? The event described was 6 years ago! Now I'm a bit slow but 21 years ago, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, the concept of dive teamwork was absolutely drilled into me. Scuba may be evolving, but the teamwork concept of the DIR-F is contained in all basic dive training, if you are listening. You cannot fault any agency if you fail to implement their ideas.
BTW, I think DIR-F is on the right track just 120 meters past the station and PADI/SSI have broken down short of city limits, but those are for other threads.
Now I must repond to NWGrateful,
Later,
CJ