Splitting days between Dauin and Moalboal?

[Luko]

Still waiting for your reply... lots of words but very little doing...
C'mon give us your best shot : impress us!

Still Waiting for your reply... c'mon easy one, Mabul! (and Dauin if you have 5 minutes more, seems you have a lot of time in your hands)
Give us a list, photos, facts, etc. Enlighten us, don't keep the good stuff just for yourself, get the data out.
Stop being full of air, do and show!

Closer to 2:20-2:30 if you leave mid-morning, but I get you want to exaggerate to make it sound like you are going through this hardship to get to Tulamben.

Sure.
You like to be cutting hair do you?
Next time you're going to Tulamben, pls schedule your car just 2h20 for going back to the airport. You'll have enough time for cutting your hair at the airport waiting for your next flight.

Apart from that, have you complained from missing out the best sites, lgnatius?

Let's see... PNG, Anilao, RA, Lembeh... all locations Alex is running workshops in the future.

I'm talking about workshops in Egypt, how come there are so many you're not replying!
Why is he doing Egypt, Eh? Best location in the world or what?

Mabul and Egypt that's all you gotta reply. (and Dauin if you pls)
c'mon I'm sure, you can do it! Don't disappoint all the people talking in your head!

 

[cetacean]

@Luko

You wrote:
" there are very few photo workshops in Malpelo, PNG or Solomons..."

I responded with Alex has a workshop planned (later this year) in PNG. This is an example of refuting the comment you had made previously. It has nothing to do with his annual workshops in the Red Sea (which are mostly for convenience/access). Furthermore, my first trip on the Bilikiki coincided with a photo workshop run by Mark Strickland.

"You like to be cutting hair..."

No, but I do like to be accurate, rather than the overdramatization that seems to be your style. As I said, I've dived the north coast of Bali for many years, even before the road to the west was fully paved. You seem deeply enamored with the area. Good news for you...most other u/w photographers would not equate the Tulumben area with Lembeh, Anilao, etc.

Just stop.

 

[Luko]

This is an example of refuting the comment you had made previously. It has nothing to do with his annual workshops in the Red Sea (which are mostly for convenience/access).

Absolutely not. So let's go into logical thinking if you think you like accurracy.
You pretended that the number workshops were a proxy to how good a dive spot should be. Which I don't agree on, since in my view they're more related more to convenience and marketing.
As a matter of fact to prove how wrong your assumption was, I reversed the relationship binding workshops with the quality of the divesite, if that were true and the main factor then the least "workshopped" area would be the worst. You had a hard time finding PNG or Solomons you still haven't found any Malpelo based workshops.
According to your pretended statistical "law", PNG, Solomons or Malpelo should be ranked low or very low as dive site since there are less workshops located at these places than say Egypt or... wait... Tulamben Bali (since you pretend Bali is not so interesting).

You are also incorrectly trying to verify this assumption on a binary mathematical scale (yes or no) while it has to be assessed on the statistical scale (ie. the correlation between events, more like a linear regression between the events). If that was the case you supposed (binary), ALL workshops would be located at the same place, which they are obviously not.
In statistics "One" doesn't contradict "few", similarly as one grain of sand doesn't make a lump of sand. That's the basis of stats.

On top of that, you are admitting in the sentence I quoted that Red Sea workshops are done for convenience. That totally condradicts your first hypothesis, the "quality of spot" theory is moot, there is not much relationship.

In short you told BS from the start. Hence you still have to show why Dauin is a top5 macro destination, you're back to the start.

Check mate, buddy. ( I hate to play chess with pigeons...)

I do like to be accurate

If you were accurate you would more likely say that the airport-Tulamben drive is in between 1h50 (at 2AM with a RedBull loaded driver, I did it) and 5 hours, because as you forgot to mention there are often ceremonies on the road that will stop you for an uncertain period of time roughly from Amed junction to Goa Lawah.

But sorry again to interrupt your grand'oeuvre of listing the fantastic critters you saw in Mabul, also a detailed report of Dauin top5 dive sites, I mean a better and more detailed one that what I wrote above ( I would be particularly interested with your report on the "very (very)" (sic) good dives on San Miguel. ).
I guess all the people interested on Dauin would like to have that report from a "macro maestro", please, pretty please !

And I see you have another request on the Raja Ampat thread... I leave you to your task. You have work on your hands. Tchuss.

 

[cetacean]

@Luko

"Absolutely not. So let's go into logical thinking if you think you like accurracy."

You are seriously struggling with logic. "Hard time finding PNG or Solomons" - the first example I gave you was Alex's planned workshop in PNG. I specifically chose that one because it should have been obvious to you (from that example) how daft your initial statement was.

In a debate - if somone tries to make a definitive point, you may refute that point through a single example, you never need to address all possible examples. You listed PNG in your list, I gave you an obvious example in return.

Now you are suggesting that this obvious example is a outlier - that's an interesting response... do we really need to look at all workshops helps in PNG (for example: on the Oceania), if so, how far back do we go? A number of photographers held workshops on the Febrina for years.

"you are admitting in the sentence I quoted that Red Sea workshops are done for convenience. That totally condradicts your first hypothesis"

No. Two things can be true at the same time. For you to try to draw this illogical conclusion shows a very weak mind.
Seriously, please stop embarrassing yourself. It's obvious you struggle with the nuance of the language, and this really isn't going anywhere that helps you.

 

[Luko]

No. Two things can be true at the same time. For you to try to draw this illogical conclusion shows a very weak mind.

It does, but you're not thinking on a statistical level where there is no true and false, there are only partial correlations meaning Causality. Hence I wonder who's been weak here.

Your hypothesis "Dauin is a TOP5 macro BECAUSE it has numerous WS" translates into a statistical model where the criteria "Numerous WS" should be driving the result of the model :
Egypt (lots of WS, more convienence, lower dive quality) and Malpelo/PNG (fewer WS, less ocnvenience, higher quality) show the correlation between the number of worshops and the convenience factor is higher than the inherent quality of the spot factor (in clear the Student indicator in this model would be higher for the convenience criteria than for the quality criteria).
One workshop in Solomons or in PNG only scores a little against the numerous WS in Egypt. It's not because ther is one or two WS that it doesn't work, once again it's a matter of correlation not YES or NO.

Coincidentally you cannot prove that Dauin is a top5 macro site simply by looking at the number of workshops (which was your ONLY argument since you refuse to described what is unique... We all know the reason it's because it's pure invention on your part.) because you also and firstly need to look at the convenience factor.
Hence your initial hypothesis of CAUSALITY is contradicted.

I absolutely agree it could be AND (Dauin can be convenient AND a TOP5 site) but then your demonstration through the "proxy" is moot because we've seen that its carried mostly by the conveinence factor. So you'd need to identify another cause BUT you dont' mention anything that proves it. That would be listing the critters you find for instance and describing the uniqueness of Dauin (since it's the other criteria you seem to put forward).

But you are weirdly refusing that since the beginning of the discussion.

You see for instance :

In a debate - if somone tries to make a definitive point, you may refute that point through a single example, you never need to address all possible examples. You listed PNG in your list, I gave you an obvious example in return.

What you pretend is typical binary thinking. Y/N or 0/1.
It doesnt' work like this with statistics and if it were (then it wouldn't be statistics) in this fictional world you would have ALL the workshops concentrated on one destination. Which is obviously not the case.
It would like if any candidate of an election had ONE vote, he would proclaim himself a winner.
You're just thinking with the wrong tools : you must think correlation testing.

---------

As a side note, you showed in your reply that you're so infatuated you think that what you don't understand cannot be understood by others. I have consciously avoided to say anything on yourself personally as a real person.
I'll do an exception here : I think this is you're showing the face of a petty minded person, considering other people with both blinders and contempt.
You can be adverse to opinions and ideas (I like or don't like this, you disagree and argue this is fine) but whoever you think you are It doesn't allow you to give any judgment on a real person you are talking too and you know zilch about. You have even put into doubt my skills at a job which you don't know absolutely nothing about. You have never met me, I don't have any prospect to meet you as well and you'd most probably look at your feet if you had that discussion in private with me.
Once again, If you have personal problem with me, I encourage you to contact me by PM rather than showing ugly faces in public and sorting names.

Now if you want to be useful for people, I am convinced (as I was from the start) that you will never list anything detailed about Dauin and Mabul.

You have a request on the other post about pristine spot, may be you can have a try.

 

[cetacean]

"there are only partial correlations meaning Causality..."

Actually, correlation does not necessarily imply causation (partial or otherwise). I'm assuming you know this (or not?)

"Your hypothesis "Dauin is a TOP5 macro BECAUSE it has numerous WS..."
You are struggling again. I offered up that Dauin was an interesting workshop destination (and where a number of renowned and well respected u/w photogaphers have chosen to gather yearly or every other year because of the macro rich environment) as one evidence point supporting the point that it is a top 5 macro destination. Never did I impy that was the only argument for this, nor did I even imply that it was the primary argument. You seem confused by this.

For the record, yes - Dauin is a top 5 macro destination (and not because of easy access, but that helps). If you believe this not to be true feel free to argue with the general consensus that exists among many u/w photographers.

"What you pretend is typical binary thinking..."

No, this is standard practice under the Oxford rules of debate. You seem to get yourself all twisted up in your inability to reason logically.

"I have consciously avoided to say anything on yourself personally ..."

You should reread what you've written (pidgeons and chess, etc.). Irregardless, you reacted to an opinion I posted, the rest of this is you trying to justify your initial reaction. It's just poor behaviour...

 

[Luko]

I offered up that Dauin was an interesting workshop destination (and where a number of renowned and well respected u/w photogaphers have chosen to gather yearly or every other year because of the macro rich environment) as one evidence point supporting the point that it is a top 5 macro destination. Never did I impy that was the only argument for this, nor did I even imply that it was the primary argument.

Even though you are now saying it was not your primary argument. The "model of proof" you were putting forward isn't standing compared to facts and data. Hence it becomes just useless. You are now recognizing it. (It took a while but it's the perfect illustration of Brandolini's law : it takes more efforts to refute one BS than just saying one.)

What's your argument then? saying that some photographers say it is (one of whom is the ambassador of a resort located there, personnally I wouldn't take advertisement as truth. ), so that's just namedropping and hear say (the authority argument), not evidence based on facts, evidence is what is actually underwater not what people say around a glass of beer. I can say I know other photographers that don't take it as a TOP5, and that's not any consensus.

If we compare experience on Dauin you've been there twice if I believe (hard to believe anything with you... let's say you are loyal on this), me 4 times including the resorts you've been staying at plus others where better/more experienced guides are operating.
Sorry, I'll say it again : I have not been that impressed with Dauin variety compared to the other places I've already mentioned.
I took the effort to list a bit of the characteristics of the sites as well as the critters. You haven't except using qualifications like "very(very) good" (sic) .
Not very helpful, it seems you're diving and shooting by procuration and through other people names.
So what's again "very (very) good" : we are all waiting suspended to your oracle.

No, this is standard practice under the Oxford rules of debate.

Well I feel I'm more like debating with someone's having Trump's logics.
ie. someone asserting his own truth, absolutely hermetic to others' opinions and trying to diminish personally his opponent.

Apart from what Schopenhauer calls the "authority argument" (ie. it's the truth because XX said it) which can always be debated, the only other rule I see you are applying is argumentum ad personam which is not really good news.

It's just poor behaviour...

Once again argumentam ad personam, resorting to names since the beginning (read your posts).
Just because you don't like to be contradicted.

You'd better PM me directly if you have personal problems with myself.

 

[cetacean]

Even though you are now saying it was not your primary argument."

First - you first took up the argument to something I posted in response to other people (ScubaBackPacker and DiveUAE).

You then stated "but in my mind not up to the real TOP locations for serious macro in terms of critter variety" which is absolutely your prerogative to offer up (it's incorrect, but that's your choice to go around spouting definitive opinions that others disagree with). You also stated that there were other locations you would put forward as possibly better. You asked why I would list Dauin as a top 5 macro destination...
In which I responded that one evidence point to consider is where others choose to hold macro focused workshops, however another agument put foward was that a set of serious, well known u/w photographers return with Marty Snyderman to participate in the Atlantis ImageMakers event (annually). The point was not why Atlantis (Dumaguete) hosts this (their interest is purely commercial, this is advertising for them), it's why would these photographers (like Marty, the Halls, Doug Perrine, Jonathan Bird, David Fleetham, Tim Rock, Mark Strickland and a number of others) return to Dumaguete to dive together if it wasn't a very productive destination for them?

The point was simple - yours is just an opinion, and rather than try to justify mine I suggested that looking at what several well respected others have chosen might be interesting evidence. ~25+ professional photographers have chosen to spend their time/$ diving Dauin (many more than once) as part of ImageMakers. The point being fairly straightforward - those with commercial interests continue to make a choice to return to dive there. Bluntly, this alone (for most folks) is enough as a supporting argument for the statement I made. You can disagree all you want, that doesn't negate either the evidence or the point made.

"Dauin you've been there twice if I believe..."

No. Again you assume much. I was in Dauin twice just this spring. I've dived that coast for ~20 years going back to when I lived in Manila. As an aside, as part of a small web company we built the first websites for a number of the dive resorts and LOBs across SE Asia and the pacific. There was a dirth of decent u/w images for these properties, so we shot & supplied much of the imagery used for these early efforts (we sold this business over a decade ago, which continues to fund a number of our diving trips).

"Once again argumentam ad personam, resorting to names since the beginning (read your posts)..."

Umm, no. You chose to disagree with something stated (not involving you). That's your prerogative...everything else has been you trying to suggest that somehow what you said matters.

As I've said previously, stopping is your choice. You should consider it...

 

[cetacean]

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[cetacean]

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