St Louis Dive Schools?

[MikeFerrara]

I believe the PADI instructor manual limits the number of dives OW students can make in one day. In the latest course standards section, it states that no more than two OW training dives may be made in one day.

It was upped to three some years back and they even made provisions for what they call excursion dives...extra dives for just touring that don't count as training dives. Check your standards again.

First off, in a pool, there really is no midwater. In an 8' pool, you are either on the surface of on the bottom. You can't clear a mask well straight horizontal, your mask has to be about vertical.

When I read this, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. 3 ft of depth is plenty of room to hover and do mask R&R.

You do not need to looking straight up but I think I addressed that in an earlier post.

Buoyancy control is HARD. Expecting beginner students to be able to do this right away is setting them up for failure.

Ever try it? My experience is just the oposite. Buoyancy control is only hard for the student when they aren't taught the mechanics and techniques they need in order to get trimmed. Students don't usually get very good at buoyancy control in OW classes because the class is conducted while kneeling. There isn't anything about kneeling that will develope buoyancy control.

There are a lot of mechanics to doing these skills, and they need to know them before they can perfect a skill. Doing them in easy conditions first lets students gain confidence and prepare for doing it under more stressful conditions midwater.

When they first get in the pool they won't be able to avoid the bottom, however, if you demonstrate everything horizontal and midwater and have them remain horizontal (even if they are touching the bottom, you'll find that they'll get midwater much sooner. Many even just see it and do it with very little instruction required.

An OW class does not make you a good diver. Period. Call your ideal class what you may, but even after their first four dives, your students will have less than ideal buoyancy control and comfort level in the water than someone who has been diving for a while.

I don't agree. I won't even take divers to OW until they have a pretty good handle on buoyancy control (doing skills midwater).

Are some classes better than others? Yes, definitely. Is a more intense, more in-depth course beneficial? Defintely, it would make students better divers.

I wouldn't call the class I taught "intense". It was thorough but that made everything easier.

Would most students still choose the easy one weekend courses? By far! People wanting to learn are generally doing it in their spare time, and there just isn't a lot of that for most people.

Lots of shops only spend about 5 hours in the pool. I found that with most class I was happy with the results if we spent about 15 hours in confined water. With what we taught in the classroom and 15 hours of confined water our OW students were good...diving midwater the whole way. The four OW dives were a blast except they were always asking why all those other divers were all over the bottom. LOL

Splitting up instruction into multiple classes gives students more flexibility in scheduling, in changing instructors, or in dropping the sport altogether if they didn't enjoy it. The main problem I have with the courses being offered is in the advanced classes. You really don't learn anything of value in your AOW class if you teach it to the minimum requirements.

Well, yes. Unfortunately, the skills and theory that isn't taught in entry level courses often isn't in any of the other courses either.

 

[b1gcountry]

If a student is 3ft from the bottom, they are still on the bottom in my usage of the term. To me, students doing skills midwater means they can't easily see the bottom, and can't easily see the surface (we're diving in 10-15' vis) and they maintain their depth and trim throughout the skill. To me, that is about skill level 2, and I think it would be great if they started teaching all the skills like this in the AOW courses.

It took me about 50 dives before I considered myself "competent" with my buoyancy, and I consider myself a fairly quick study. If you say your students are competent after four dives and 15 hours in the pool, then we probably aren't talking about the same level of competence. We spend 6 weeks at the pool, with 2-2.5 hour sessions each week. Most LDS classes seem to be about the same, with some twice a week for 3 weeks, although there are typically more students and less DMs with the LDS classes.

I think getting students off their knees is a great thing, but in the two OW classes I've helped out with (a small number, and I'm sure you've dealt with more), there has been one or two students who are very nervous about breathing underwater. Letting them kneel in shallow water with enough weight to make sure they don't go anywhere gets them over their initial fear of having to breathe underwater for the first time. Same thing goes with mask clearing, or no mask breathing. These are sometimes hard skills to get right for someone who is new to SCUBA and hasn't spent much time around water. Putting them on their knees the first couple of times lets them get that skill down before having to complicate it with them controlling their buoyancy as well.
Once the skill is mastered, have them do it while maintaining a fin pivot.
Once that is mastered, have them do it hovering on the bottom.
Once that is mastered, have them do it midwater.
Once that is mastered, have them do it midwater with no mask on.

That's my opinion, and it has been borne out by my admittedly limited experience.

 

[diverbob]

Its a shame we don't live in a perfect world, where every student could leave class knowing all they need to know. But it doesn't happen that way. Most LDS that I know have 1 weekend in a pool, and 1 weekend in OW, and send the students on their assuming they have met the requirements set forth by that particular training agency. Would the dive community send out better students, if they was in the pool more than just 1 weekend? Of course they would. But then the cost of classes are going to go up, because most shops (yes, there are exceptions to this rule) don't have their own pool, so they will have to rent more pool time. Most instructors I know teach on the side, its not their living. So getting an instructor to commit to any more than that is going to be hard to do as well. Even if they do, they will have to be paid more, and again, forces the cost of the classes up. The bottom line is, OW class is just to teach the basics, and make sure the diver has enough knowledge to go out, plan, enjoy and return from a dive. Passing OW class does not mean they are ready to go out, and dive Devils throat in Cozumel right after OW class. It is up to the diver to progress and gain experience at their own pace, whether its on their own, with more experienced dive buddies or through more classes.

 

[SteveC]

Diverbob has hit the nail square on the head !

 

[Quarrior]

So I'm totally new to scuba, but I'm planning on taking some lessons so I can then plan a trip out in new zealand or austrialia for early 2007. I'm in St Louis and I've found a number of schools:

West End Diving (http://www.westenddiving.com/openwater.htm)
Midwest Scuba (http://www.midwestscuba.net/openwater.asp#cost)
Great American Diving Co (TGADC) (http://www.tgadc.com/openwater.aspx)
Y-kiki Divers (http://www.y-kiki.com/classes_ow.php#cost)

It seems the prices vary greatly, above they are roughly ordered in cost. Which one should I pick? I'm a student on a budget, but I'm willing to pay for better instruction if it means I'll be safer & have more fun later.

As a beginner, I just want to get a PADI "open water" cert, right?

I quoted the original post because it is the smartest post from someone wanting to get into diving that I have seen on this board.

99% of the posts from soon to be divers wanting to know about classes deal primarily with the cost of the class. At least as far as I've seen.

Rarely does anyone do their homework and come in here asking which of the local LDS' have the better training or instructors. Granted the OP was concerned about cost, but also stated that if it costs more for the better class, so be it.

We can discuss and argue all year about what OW classes should and should not cover and what the student should and should not be able to do when they complete the class.

I think the agencies have done their best to come up with a one size fits all kind of class. You have to remember, not everyone has the competency level as the other. Not everyone has the comfort level in the water as the other. You have to cater to the weakest to ensure they don't kill themselves right off the bat.

I think the agencies do a great job of instilling in the new divers the need for further education. Granted to some of us these classes are rather redundant, but to others they are truly educational.

There was one post in this thread that called the OW certification a "learner's permit". I don't know that I'd go that far. But, it certainly is comparable to a 16 year old getting their driver's license. There's still a lot to learn and you never stop learning.

The key to diving and driving a car is common sense and good dose of respect for the environment you're in.

 

[Wozzer]

Thanks for all the advice everyone, it seems like the majority of OW courses will teach me enough to be safe as long as I stay within my limits, and no course is going to teach you so much that you don't need lots more training.

It's a pity I didn't get into this earlier in the year, as it seems a lot of the smaller programs (which I think are better) don't have much scheduled now. Does anyone know about "Scuba Ah" (NAUI) in Wentzville (a little west of O'fallon)?